TRANSCRIPT

 

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;11

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;13 - 00;00;22;00

David Gross (DG)

Most of our buildings are taller and bigger. And this was a little bit of a throwback. A five-story building, not too many square feet, but it was a challenge for us and an opportunity to look at our housing work on a smaller scale and very proud of it.

 

00;00;22;02 - 00;02;59;25

DP

This is my guest, David Gross. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we’ll highlight David's project Park and Elton.

Park and Elton is a development with 38 residential units in the Bronx, consisting of two distinct five story buildings. These buildings correspond to the Melrose Commons Urban Renewal Plan. The plan provides a range of affordable housing choices for the Bronx.

The use of simple building materials, including brick in various patterns, colors and facade wall depths, makes these modest buildings appear quite unique. The simple modern masonry cornice and the differentiation of the window header detail with soldier course patterns reference the historical brick clad buildings found throughout the district. The subtle volume and height of Park and Elton also maintain a satisfying human scale.

Construction of the buildings included sustainable design elements and incorporated New York City Green building standards. Park and Elton are considered equivalent to LEED certified buildings.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Today we're talking to David E. Gross, AIA. David earned his Master of Architecture from the University of Pennsylvania and graduated cum laude with distinction.

David is the co-founder and executive partner of GF55 Architects, a national firm with offices in New York City and Miami. GF55, has expertise in multifamily, retail, educational, hospitality and industrial architecture. Since 1984, GF55 has designed and built over 12 million square feet of housing nationally. David's projects have received two Urban Land Institute Models of Excellence awards and was the recipient of the Andrew J. Thomas Pioneer and Housing Award in 2010 from the New York City AIA chapter.

David received an award of merit for the renovation and addition of a historic and significant mid-century modern house in Rye, New York. His work has also been featured in Architectural Digest and The New York Times. Today, we're going to talk to David about GF55’s Park and Elton Project.

Welcome, David. So, before we get started, tell us a little bit about GF55 Architects. I understand your firm is in both New York City and Miami. What's the size of the firm and do the offices take the same kind of work?

 

00;03;00;04 - 00;03;17;11

DG

We're very much a New York firm with a satellite office in Miami and the Miami offices in support of the New York workload. The needs of staffing vary, and sometimes we have the ability to staff the projects through the Miami workforce as opposed to the New York workforce.

 

00;03;17;13 - 00;03;24;03

DP

So, tell us a little bit about GF55 architects, who you're the co-founding partner. How did you guys get your start?

 

00;03;24;09 - 00;03;52;06

DG

My partner, Len, he's the “F” and I - Len Fusca - we met in grad school, and we were partners right away in both architectural terms and friendship terms. Down the road, 15 years later, we met Shy, also, who's our third partner and the three of us are close professionally and friendship wise. We're all friends. We have about 50 people right now and we have a varied practice. But really a specialty in housing.

 

00;03;52;08 - 00;03;54;18

DP

How long have you had the Miami location then?

 

00;03;54;25 - 00;03;57;23

DG

I would say since 2012.

 

00;03;57;27 - 00;03;58;27

DP

Has that been helpful?

 

00;03;59;01 - 00;03;59;27

DG

Very helpful.

 

00;04;00;03 - 00;04;04;25

DP

Do you have people that you work with locally and then you also work with them in Miami?

 

00;04;04;29 - 00;04;41;01

DG

Yes. The Miami office specializes in retail. We do a large amount of retail buildout work across the country, but our main office, I would say, is New York. In New York, we do a lot of projects that are versions of Park and Elton, but much larger. We also do charter schools and medical facilities, and we're working on a large storage facility near the JFK Airport, which came to us right before COVID and then the entire process of COVID with Amazon, it was all of a sudden that's a building type that was very much in demand.

 

00;04;41;06 - 00;04;46;21

DP

Ironically, it's a good segue way to what is your role in the office. Right. Everybody's doing something different. What are you doing now?

 

00;04;46;23 - 00;05;53;26

DG

I like being an architect. You know, sometimes I find that I maybe I'm focusing on the buildings too much. I would say that my role is focusing on the long-term growth of the company and the direction of the company.

We have an outside consultant on how to manage the office because at 50 people, all of a sudden, it's way too big for any of the three partners to direct themselves. And we value the expertise that we give, and we are mature enough now to value the expertise that outside consultants give us. So, we try to run the office very professionally. And I would say that a lot of our energy about running the office is motivating the workforce and we motivate the workforce through a carrot rather than a stick.

It's not the old school where you better be here or else. We have to market – intra-office marketing is almost as important as outside marketing. We have to make sure that everyone's gratified and satisfied because anybody under 40 demands that of us. It's challenging and it's interesting and it's – I like it. It's heartwarming.

 

00;05;54;02 - 00;06;01;06

DP

It's a neat paradigm, though. I mean, thinking deeply about your employees and their well-being and wanting to keep them, I think that's wonderful.

 

00;06;01;10 - 00;06;04;13

DG

We should sign you up for the volleyball team.

 

00;06;04;16 - 00;06;05;21

DP

I need about another foot!

 

00;06;05;24 - 00;06;10;00

DG

It's not just volleyball. It's après-volleyball that they like. You know, like apres-ski.

 

00;06;10;07 - 00;06;20;00

DP

That's great. All right, so let's dig in here and talk about Park and Elton. So, Park is at 3120 Park Avenue in the Bronx. Elton is East 159th Street in the Bronx, correct?

 

00;06;20;03 - 00;06;20;17

DG

Yes.

 

00;06;20;24 - 00;06;30;14

DP

So, you're a board member of the New York State Association for Affordable Housing, the Citizens Housing and Planning Council, as well as the New York Housing Conference, correct?

 

00;06;30;20 - 00;06;30;14

DG

Yes.

 

00;06;31;09 - 00;06;41;23

DP

You're intimately familiar with affordable housing. This project, did you know it was coming up? What was the process by which you interviewed or took the job or how did that work out for you?

 

00;06;41;26 - 00;07;31;26

DG

It was actually part two of a project. That part one was maybe ten years before that. And unfortunately, the original developer passed away. One of his employees took over the job and it's a unique project for us because most of our buildings are taller and bigger. And this was a little bit of a throwback, a five-story building, not too many square feet, but it was a challenge for us and an opportunity to look at our housing work on a smaller scale and very proud of it.

As you mentioned, I'm a member of housing organizations. I grew up, my father and grandfather were builder developers and while their work wasn't affordable with a capital A, it was affordable with a small A because they built stuff that was a modest price points. And I really have a lot of familiarity with that building type.

 

00;07;32;02 - 00;07;34;13

DP

Well, it sounds like something that can be pretty gratifying.

 

00;07;34;18 - 00;08;02;16

DG

Yeah, I would say that's my main professional focus. And Parker and Elton were challenging because even though they're small in scale, they're important. One of them is on the corner and it forms a strong impact on that street. And it's a part of the South Bronx, that is, the buildings are modest. These buildings are very much a breath of fresh air to the neighborhoods. They're small, but they punch above their weight class visually.

 

00;08;02;18 - 00;08;08;10

DP

So, did the architecture in the neighborhood affect the architecture that you ultimately made?

 

00;08;08;13 - 00;09;44;13

DG

I would say the architecture in the neighborhood affected it in scale, but not in aesthetics. I think that our point was to be not oppositional, but in contrast to the older buildings and, you know, one of our mottos is creative responses with humble materials. If you look at the classic modern architects, the housing was really an issue in the 1920s and it was never about luxury materials. Despite the Barcelona Pavilion and all the history of obviously building these amazing villas in a modernist style for very wealthy people. But the focus, on paper at least, was housing for people.

And what's so great about Park and Elton is because they're a small size, we really had to focus on the details. I would say that I had a great team in the office to work with. The original designer, Dimitri Papageorgiou and I worked on the basic idea. We had a third person on the team, Emily Koustae, who was sort of sitting next to Dimitri offering her opinion, said it so smartly that we listened. And then the woman who ran the job during construction, Ingrid Aguilar, she was also very important because during the construction we started to see some opportunities with the way the brick was laid that we tested it, she looked at it, she photographed it, she brought it back to the office, we changed it. There is a detail of white brick that goes up the building as if it's like bubbles floating into the air. They become fewer as they go vertical.

 

00;09;44;13 - 00;09;45;18

DP

It's denser below.

 

00;09;45;19 - 00;09;48;19

DG

Yeah, and that was all done during the construction.

 

00;09;48;24 - 00;09;52;17

DP

So, let's start with the client's programmatic requirements. What did they want?

 

00;09;48;24 - 00;10;52;28

DG

HPD is the housing preservation development arm of the New York City government. And they have strict guidelines about what size units and what mix you can build. And they have different programs that the developer wants to qualify for to get tax credits.

So, we had to satisfy the specific program for affordability that the city and the developer had worked out. So, we satisfy that the one bedrooms are 650 square feet, studios are 475, etc., etc. There's a million requirements on how big the windows can be and what kind of air conditioning and what the energy rating is. Even though they're affordable, they're built in a very, very quality manner.

So that was the first requirement. Then there's a zoning requirement for a maximum building height and a maximum lot coverage. And there's a lot of metrics and matrices that you have to satisfy in order to finally get to the way it looks.

 

00;10;53;05 - 00;10;56;02

DP

So, there weren't any breaks given to the fact that this is affordable house.

 

00;10;56;04 - 00;11;03;22

DG

No, no special breaks. It's built into the code that you get a certain benefit from building affordable units.

 

00;11;03;24 - 00;11;07;20

DP

So, tell us about the two sites. How were they the same? How were they different?

 

00;11;07;23 - 00;12;10;19

DG

The Park is on the corner, and it has a corner window that wraps the facade, and you see it from a distance. And then Elton is an infill building on a street that is at a diagonal to the building itself. And we knew that in order to come out of this alive, both mentally and architecturally and constructability wise, we had to make the buildings the same.

So, we made them the same. The choice to use brick was an easy one because brick is so flexible, because brick is a unit that's made so that you can change it as you lay the brick which is laid by a person. So, there's a way to get richness and detail in the facade through the brick. It's super durable and the way we did it where we have the window panels are shiny black brick as opposed to the, I think, two color blend on the rest of the building gives it the texture as if it were a different material.

 

00;12;10;22 - 00;12;25;10

DP

When I was reading about the project, you said that the building plans are super simple and yet, you know, you stand back, and you look at these things and there's – you got something going on. So, tell us a little bit about the building plans. How did you make them a little less like a box?

 

00;12;25;12 - 00;14;10;09

DG

There's a little tower on the end, and on each end to give the building a little more shape, you know, lack of a better term. But that's a right out of the zoning code that allows you to do that. New York is actually very conservative because quality housing, which is the current zoning for housing encourage you to make boxes so that when you go down the street, whether it's Park Avenue or 135th Street in the Bronx, all the buildings are the same height. They're looking to create that urban scale that's consistent. And along the avenues, it's taller and along the side streets it's lower. But it's consistent. And you can see from these photographs that our building is within a few feet of the adjacent buildings. So that's how we ended up with the massing.

In terms of the windows, it's very budget constrained. So, it's not just simple materials and creative ways. The whole process, you have to find the design and there's a discipline to using the materials to change the scale. For example, if we had just drawn the elevation with the windows, it would seem like a barracks. It would just be a box and it would seem very closed. But by doing visual tricks, like adding the side panels and a different color that matches the window frame, it expands the visual impact of the window opening and it makes the scale of the implied grid larger. So, it seems airier, but in fact it's not airier. It’s a visual trick. Architects are doing that all over the world to try to bring their buildings into scale.

 

00;14;10;13 - 00;14;17;05

DP

And you change the direction of the brick, right? The way the brick is laid, and the facade undulates somewhat, right?

 

00;14;17;09 - 00;15;22;22

DG

I mean, if you zoom in on the photographs that we're looking at, the horizontal bands, they're vertical and they're a stack bond. They line up as a grid. And the regular brick in between the horizontal bands is a running bond that stagger each joint the half a dimension of the brick. So, you get a different way the sunlight hits the brick. It adds visual nuance and detail, which I think there's a criticism of buildings when they're too stark, unless they're completely stark. And then the starkness is a design feature.

But I think you need to find the details to make the building visually interesting. I think you owe that, as the architect, to the world. It’s beauty, commodity and delight since Vitruvius said it, and he probably wishes he had copyrighted that phrase because that would be a great brand in 1642. But commodity is the function, and the structure is firmness, and delight is it has to look good. I mean, that's fundamental to being an architect. It has to look good.

 

00;15;22;29 - 00;15;27;10

DP

What about the color? How did you guys choose the brown? The variations of brown.

 

00;15;27;12 - 00;16;14;15

DG

The brick has sort of a brown, gray feel, and we wanted it to seem contemporary and not traditional in any way. I think that that brick that we used, because it's such a small quantity and it's a small relatively a small building, it's a more expensive brick than the cheapest. The developer, the builder, is often looking for the least expensive.

But in this case, the difference in the cost between a better brick and a simple brick was minimal. So, we went with a more fashionable, more stylish brick that you see in other buildings around town on a taller and more higher end buildings. In fact, we use this brick in other buildings, we like this building. There's sort of a little laboratory for us to explore other ideas.

 

00;16;14;18 - 00;16;18;15

DP

How was it working with the mason in the field? Did you guys do mockups?

 

00;16;18;17 - 00;16;46;21

DG

We did mockups. I think that Ingrid, she got the guys to do what she wanted. You know, so much of the world is about how do you get the other person to hear you and how do you get the other person to do what you want? And certainly, the architect has no literal power. They have the power of persuasion. And I think we worked closely with the developer and the contractors to persuade them to help us achieve our visual goals.

 

00;16;46;23 - 00;17;03;03

DP

Yeah, clearly. We're talking a little bit about design challenges here and we're talking about how you manipulated the bricks in various ways to create a facade that looks more appealing. Did brick solve any design challenges for you guys?

 

00;17;03;05 - 00;18;18;19

DG

I mean, brick has been a success since, you know, the Egyptians. Brick has been a success since the Neanderthals almost. But brick gives you a tremendously good thermal rating in New York. Any building that is built with public money or public support has to achieve a very high green rating. It's basically a LEED rating. 20 years ago, 15 years ago, everything was LEED. It had to be rated.

Well, the New York City green enterprise standards are fundamentally a LEED goal. So, we had to achieve that. We have to do an energy certification at the end and brick is just a tremendously flexible material for that. If you use a metal panel, which is much more expensive or a terracotta panel, it isn't necessarily any more energy efficient than brick.

So, brick helps with that because it's a small unit, it's flexible. So, if you run into a funky dimension in the space between your building and the property line in the adjacent building, it's easy to manipulate. And you can work with it on the site and the guy who's laying it can work with it for you.

 

00;18;08;22 - 00;18;24;20

DP

I don't know a whole lot about building in New York City. Talk a little bit about how long was the planning process for the building. How long did the review, the City Review take? How long was the design process? Construction process start to finish?

 

00;18;24;22 - 00;19;14;29

DG

That's a good question. It takes about 9 to 10 months to design a building from start to finish. In the middle of that process, you file the drawings about five months in with the city of New York. It takes four months plus to get the drawings approved. As they are reviewing the plans and asking for more information, you're working on the plans and filling in the information. So, the filing process and the production process, the design process are running in tandem. They're running concurrently.

Then there's another 2 to 3 months for the project to have the site prepared, demolition to take place, SOE which is a Support of Excavation process, you have to support the site as it's being excavated. And then I would say a building like this takes about 18 months to build.

 

00;19;15;06 - 00;19;16;10

DP

Park or Elton?

 

00;19;16;17 - 00;19;40;10

DG

They were both built simultaneously. They weren't built one and then the other built at the same time. So, when they did the foundation on one, they were doing the foundation on the other. The concrete sub was at both sides at the same time. The brick was done at the same time. These are simple load bearing buildings where it's a block backup to a brick facade and concrete floors and load bearing concrete walls.

 

00;19;40;15 - 00;19;41;14

DP

No steel?

 

00;19;41;15 - 00;19;44;14

DG

A miscellaneous steel over the windows. Miscellaneous steel at the corners.

 

00;19;44;20 - 00;19;45;24

DP

Just steel lintels and-

 

00;19;45;27 - 00;19;59;28

DG

Yeah, not too much steel. The spans are that long. And if you look at the building without the details, the masonry is about 35% of the width of the windows. So that's a very short span.

 

00;20;00;03 - 00;20;01;24

DP

What about ARB?

 

00;20;01;26 - 00;20;50;22

DG

There is no ARB in New York City. You can build a 100-storey building and – city planning, if you need any kind of variance, or you have a zoning issue, city planning acts as the architectural arbiter of the project. But if it's a simple project like this, an as-of-right project, you would be smart to show it to a community board because the community boards, you know, that's the smallest governmental association in the city and it's really the local people who are on a community board. Obviously, it's the people that really care. And you want the community board to be a part of your process. So, the developer will meet with the community board quietly, keep it friendly. And a project like this, I don't think there was any opposition whatsoever.

 

00;20;50;22 - 00;20;55;23

DP

And you do that - you wrap up schematic design, then you meet with people that are local.

 

00;20;56;00 - 00;21;20;03

DG

Exactly. To gain support because the last thing you want is opposition. I've worked in other cities and the great thing about New York is there are hurdles in front of you, many hurdles, but they're above ground. It's not like a game, you know, a video game where the hurdles come at you as you're running. You see them in front of you. The rules are transparent, and you can work the system.

 

00;21;20;06 - 00;21;26;14

DP

And when you guys present, do you present three dimensional images that you put together, Revit or-

 

00;21;26;14 - 00;21;47;22

DG

Revit. We do all of our work on three-dimensional building information modeling. Now, we don't use any CAD. Our staff is really talented and expert at BIM, and that means that when they're drawing, the very first line is a wall, not a line. And this three dimensionals are right there. And we have some very talented renderers.

 

00;21;47;25 - 00;21;53;12

DP

I’m sure. So, did you guys learn anything through the process of designing and getting these buildings built?

 

00;21;53;14 - 00;22;21;04

DG

The architecture is a very slow-paced world. If there's a crisis, you're not doing it right. There really shouldn't be any crises. Maybe when you're young and you forgot the most fundamental thing, there’s a crisis. But at this point, I would say that these buildings were inspirational for me because the four of us, the team, we were engaged all the way through, and we kept looking at it. It was a small project, and it was exciting in that way.

 

00;22;21;07 - 00;22;24;20

DP

I'll wrap it up with an easier question – maybe a harder question.

 

00;22;24;24 - 00;22;25;29

DG

Throw them at me. Come on.

 

00;22;26;05 - 00;22;29;05

DP

You clearly have a lot of experience being an architect-

 

00;22;29;29 - 00;22;32;13

DG

I didn't start out with gray hair. I've earned-

 

00;22;32;20 - 00;22;35;11

DP

I had hair.

 

00;22;32;20 - 00;22;37;12

DG

Exactly. Sure, you have hair.

 

00;22;37;15 - 00;22;45;25

DP

So, if you had to look back and give your younger self advice that you didn't know back then. What would it be, about being an architect.

 

00;22;45;27 - 00;23;24;22

DG

That's a great question. It reminds me of something I was thinking about on the way over here in preparation for today's chat. I think in any profession - medical, legal - your user group, your client is turned off to jargon. You can't speak with technical terms or only terms that another architect would recognize. So, I try very hard to be plainspoken and put things in terms of the benefit of the client and I think that that is something that I'm good at and people respond to that because the goal is to have a dialog with your client. And I think that's the best way.

 

00;23;24;29 - 00;23;44;05

DP

You know, interestingly, growing up, you must have seen how important that was with your father and his business. Having a good relationship, being a good communicator, being positive, never telling somebody no. Yeah, we can look at that. Let's give it a shot. So, it would seem to me that you learned an awful lot from your folks.

 

00;23;44;13 - 00;23;44;27

DG

I did.

 

00;23;45;04 - 00;23;49;24

DP

Well, David, it's been great to have you here. Thank you very much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about GF55?

 

00;23;49;26 - 00;24;00;02

DG

www.gf55.com or check out our Instagram page or our Twitter feed for all the stuff about us.

 

00;24;00;03 - 00;24;03;12

DP

All right, pretty straightforward. Well, thank you very much for your time. It's great to meet you.

 

00;24;03;19 - 00;24;05;11

DG

You too. I'm sure I'll see you soon.

 

00;24;05;12 - 00;24;09;01

DP

Right on.

TRANSCRIPT

 

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;10

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;12 - 00;00;37;12

Eric Pros (EP)

The previous facility really just wasn't suiting their needs at all. They didn't have large gathering spaces. They didn't have places for fitness or any kind of wellness. So understanding all of those needs and trying to come up with a layout for the building that made all those spaces very obvious and making circulation to those spaces very easy. So we laid the building out as kind of a big donut.

 

So the circulation pass around the core. You can't get lost if you make a wrong turn, you just do a loop around the building and you're right back where you started.

 

00;00;37;14 - 00;03;04;27

DP

This is my guest, Eric Pros. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we highlight Eric's new City of Westlake Senior Community Center. The new City of Westlake Senior Community Center was designed for senior citizens. The building is quite large at 28,000 square feet, and the building typology is more and more familiar across the United States.

 

With that said, the design team used design restrictions as an opportunity. The City of Westlake, Ohio, adopted a distinctive Western reserve traditional style of architecture. All public buildings throughout Westlake are comprised of a traditional sandstone water table, a blended red brick veneer and a pitched roof with reverse gables over their entries. At the outset, it was strongly suggested by the city that all buildings in Westlake incorporate the same old Detroit red brown blend of brick in a standard modular size.

 

With these stipulations in mind, the finished building reimagines the standard running bond pattern of brick through the lens of an ancient Roman ruin. The team created a unique quarter coffer brick detail to make both the construction process repeatable and the facades uniquely textured. The resulting esthetic is innovative and quite elegant.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

 

Eric is Director of Design at DS Architecture in Cleveland, Ohio. He has a bachelor's and master's degree in architecture and MBA all from Kent State University. Eric has also served as a professor at Kent State teaching Design Studio and digital application courses. His focus at DS Architecture is creating accessible and inclusive design, which has led to numerous award winning projects and successful partnerships across the country.

 

He was recently awarded the American Institute of Architects 2022 Young Architect Award at the national level. He was included in the 40 under 40 class of 2022 by Building Design and Construction Network. He was also chosen as the 2022 recipient of the International Masonry Institute's Young Architect Innovator in Masonry Award. Welcome, Eric. Nice to have you with us today.

 

So tell us a little bit about DS Architecture in Cleveland, Ohio. Where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;05;03 - 00;03;31;16

EP

Thanks, Doug. It's great to be here today. DS Architecture is headquartered in Cleveland, Ohio, and we are growing to be 20 people. We're actually making a hire very soon. We're actually celebrating our 40th year in business this year. So David Summers founded the firm in 1983, and it's been growing ever since. So I've been with the firm for about 12 years now.

 

August was my 12-year anniversary at the firm, and it's just been really incredible to see the growth over that time and to be a part of it.

 

00;03;31;19 - 00;03;34;25

DP

Had you worked at any other firms before DS Architecture?

 

00;03;35;01 - 00;04;13;18

EP

Yeah, I had an opportunity to intern as a high school student for a small design firm out on the west side of Cleveland in Vermillion and learned a lot there. They were a little bit more of a traditional firm in hadn’t fully embrace technology, so even had a chance to draw by hand and run blueprints the old way.

 

So gave me a great background into the design profession. Then as I went into college, you know, I had an opportunity to intern at a couple different firms and get a good experience learning about the industry, learning about different typologies. When I graduated, the opportunity to join DS Architecture presented itself. I've been there ever since.

 

00;04;13;20 - 00;04;16;12

DP

So what's your role in your current position?

 

00;04;16;15 - 00;04;58;26

EP

I'm the Director of Design at DS Architecture. That means a lot of different things. I have some influence and some input on all the design decisions we make at the firm. Some projects I get a lot more involved with and run through some of that project management as well. On other projects, I'm a little less involved and just there to provide feedback or to be a sounding board for the team.

 

So every project is a little bit different. The Westlake Senior Community Center Project is one of those projects where I was embedded in the team throughout the entire project. So the interview process to the ribbon cutting ceremony, I was there for the whole step. That project presented a lot of opportunities for us. It was the right one to really get involved with. So it was a pleasure.

 

00;04;58;28 - 00;05;10;21

DP

It clearly did and I'm really looking forward to digging in here. So let's talk about the building. Tell us a little bit more about the new City of Westlake Senior Community Center. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;05;10;23 - 00;06;06;25

EP

So it's a public project. Obviously, our client was the City of Westlake, so we went through a typical RFQ process where we submitted our qualifications. We put together a great team for this project. We had two engineers that we partnered with quite often on these public projects. We also brought in a subject matter expert, a firm called Lifespan Design out of Cincinnati, to serve as our senior center design consultant.

 

So they have a wealth of knowledge on designing senior centers and all the details that go into that. So that team is the reason why we won. I think our passion for design and the team we had built really gave us a chance to win that one. So again, went through the interview process, was awarded the project. The City of Westlake was our client and we had the end users.

 

A win by anybody. Agad is the director there. So she was sort of our client in a way. But we're working with the City of Westlake is our point of contact.

 

00;06;06;28 - 00;06;10;23

DP

So you guys did not know the clients before you submitted the RFQ?

 

00;06;10;26 - 00;06;31;11

EP

That's correct. This was our first project with the city. Like so brand new client. That's part of the fun with the public projects. We always meet new people, and even though it's a similar project to maybe another community, every community has a different character. They have a different vision for how they'll use the space. So it's always a new relationship that we get a chance to build.

 

00;06;31;14 - 00;06;34;11

DP

So how far was the location from your office?

 

00;06;34;14 - 00;06;45;25

EP

Not too far. About 20 minutes. Just near west side of Cleveland. So there's a highway that connects the two pretty closely. So very easy to get there, and we're proud to be working in our community.

 

00;06;45;27 - 00;06;48;28

DP

Could you give us a little history of the location?

 

00;06;49;01 - 00;07;27;01

EP

Sure. The senior center is located in the recreational campus for the City of Westlake . They have a parking space that they've designated for the public to use. It has a rec center. It has baseball fields, pickleball courts, a fishing pond, even sledding hills. So it's a place for the community to gather. This project wanted to be a part of that overall campus, but have its own identity.

 

Before this, the senior center was located in an old golf clubhouse and it really wasn't suited to their needs, wasn't designed for the uses there. So they wanted to be a part of that overall civic campus. What have their own space?

 

00;07;27;04 - 00;07;33;05

DP

So the scope of the project is pretty obvious. Could you give us a little bit more about the client's programmatic requirements?

 

00;07;33;07 - 00;09;09;09

EP

Absolutely. Working with the senior center and understanding the users and the types of spaces that they would be using there gave us an opportunity to really get an insight into the daily operations of the senior center and learning all of the wonderful programs that they have. The previous facility really just wasn't suiting their needs at all. They didn't have large gathering spaces.

 

They didn't have places for fitness or any kind of wellness. So understanding all of those needs and trying to come up with a layout for the building that made all those spaces very obvious and making circulation to those spaces very easy. So we laid the building out is kind of a big donut. So the circulation pass around the core, you can't get lost. If you make a wrong turn you just do a loop around the building and you're right back where you started thinking about visibility and in views through the building from the building to the building were really critical for us. The wayfinding that we did for the project made it so that anyone who was coming to that building for any of the programs they have has a very clear path to get from the parking lot to the building and to the program safely.

 

We located the administrative offices right in the front of the building near where there is a drop off and clear view of the parking lot. So in Cleveland, our winters can be pretty rough and we wanted to make sure that there was visibility out into the parking lot in case a car were to get stuck or someone would have trouble getting from their car to the building.

 

So thinking about the views and that connection between the staff and the patrons was really critical.

 

00;09;09;12 - 00;09;19;18

DP

So let's back up a sec and talk a little bit about the site. It seems to me there were no unique topographic features for the building. The land is relatively flat other than the sledding hill.

 

00;09;19;18 - 00;10;09;18

EP

Correct. It's a very flat site and because of the users with possible mobility issues, thinking about making the site as level and as flat and is easy to navigate as possible was critical for us. We did introduce some landscape elements, some kind of mounting to provide some interesting views to the building, provide a little privacy from some of the other users in the recreational campus, and also to provide a bit of a buffer between this facility and the neighboring residences because it's in this park, we have a lot of activity on one side of the building.

 

On the other side, there are people's homes. So we wanted to make sure we were good neighbor. The nature of this building, it's not loud, doesn't stay open late, but we did want to make sure we had that proper separation between the uses here and people's backyards.

 

00;10;09;20 - 00;10;21;10

DP

And what about project restrictions? You've got the job. Now you've got to look at the zoning codes and building codes, etc. Anything unique or special regarding like ADA, for example?

 

00;10;21;15 - 00;11;16;20

EP

With this project, because we were designing for seniors that may or may not have mobility issues, we took ADA compliance very seriously and even went into more of a mindset of universal design where we didn't want to have any slopes more than 20%. We wanted to make sure that we had handrails around the perimeter of the building for someone who's walking, it may need to take a break between two locations.

 

So we really thought a lot about the types of people using the space, how to give them dignity while they're using it, and to make it a space where people feel comfortable. One of the biggest challenges is getting seniors to come out, connect, feel comfortable, create those relationships. And that was one of the challenges that this building had, was finding ways to make all that happen without making it look geriatric or like a senior home or a hospital, but having those features there when you need them.

 

00;11;16;27 - 00;11;24;23

DP

So I'm sure the city reviewed the design. How long did the planning process take the City Review and design and construction kind of start to finish?

 

00;11;24;25 - 00;12;37;02

EP

Yeah, that's a good question. The city was very involved as our client, obviously the city engineer, were our main port of contact, so they helped us through the process. They were there to sort of lead that design because it was a high profile public project for the community. We got a lot of feedback from the community, especially those that the neighbors that abutted the property had concerns and we certainly wanted to address all of those.

 

So the process was involved. We got a lot of feedback. We had many, many public meetings trying to find the right way to position it on the site, trying to find the right way to make sure respecting the neighbors, making the building visible. A lot of parameters there to navigate. Ultimately did we got through and even the style of the building was something that people felt very passionate about.

 

As you mentioned at the beginning, it's in this campus that has a Western Reserve style to it. We wanted the building to fit into that campus, but also have its own identity, and that gave us certainly a design challenge. How do we make something that feels traditional but doesn't feel too dated or has new energy in life, which is what the seniors need out of this building? So it was a challenge, certainly was.

 

00;12;37;04 - 00;13;36;06

DP

So the City of Westlake set up some restrictions, obviously, what material the buildings made out of, but they didn't say how to form those brick modules on the exterior. Correct? And so you guys decided we've got 28,000 square feet in the buildings, a giant donut. So we have these large facades and you're thinking about what the heck can we do with a building that most architects would simply probably not spend a lot of time thinking about these exterior elevations?

 

When I saw these photos, I got to tell you, I was blown away. This is a gorgeous series of details and it must have taken quite some time for the office to put these together. So let's talk a little bit about start to finish. Who came up with this idea and how did you guys start thinking about the fact that we're going to use an ancient Roman ruin?

 

And where do you go with that and how do you articulate that in the office and how many different passes did it take, etc.?

 

00;13;36;08 - 00;15;26;14

EP

Thank you for appreciating the challenge that that presented. As you mentioned, you know, we sort of inherited a kit of parts, the tools of the materials that we needed to use for the project. But as you indicated, how they come together is really what's interesting. As an architect, you can take a brick and detail that a number of different ways and get a lot of other results out of it.

 

Then what might be expected. So as you indicated, the Pantheon was sort of our inspiration for this project. The layout of the building is focused around this courtyard, which brings natural light into the building, makes it a focal point for people to gather. Even if the weather's not cooperating, you can still go outside and be under these covered canopies, so you can at least get some fresh air.

 

Enjoy the weather in Cleveland when it is appropriate to do so. So the Pantheon became sort of a inspiration for the overall way that the buildings felt, the way that light came into the space, energized that space, created a focal point and really made that volume inspiring. People that are familiar with the Pantheon, the most dramatic spaces when you get into that covered dome and you have the lake coming into the oculus in the way that light spills over those coffers is just incredible.

 

Every time you're there, the light looks differently. The shadows that are cast on those coffers are just truly inspiring. So we took that idea and instead of making it part of the interior, we express that on the exterior. So we took the idea of a coffer and developed a detail out of bricks that accomplished those shadows, the as light across the surface and detailed it in a way that we could get as much drama out of those details as possible.

 

So as you indicated, the quarter coffer we kind of took that coffer detail and took a corner of it and use that as the inspiration for the exterior.

 

00;15;26;21 - 00;15;32;17

DP

For those that are listening who don't understand what a coffer is. Could you describe that to people?

 

00;15;32;20 - 00;16;06;15

EP

Yeah. So a coffer, particularly in the pantheon, it's a concrete dome and these are recesses that are carved into that mass. The Pantheon has a series of kind of steps to their coffers too. So there's even more shadow, there's more depth to that material. And the massiveness of that concrete is really celebrated in that way. You can get a sense of how much depth and how much mass there is to that form.

 

And then the way that light interacts with that space just really energizes it and creates that dramatic effect we wanted to capture.

 

00;16;06;18 - 00;16;26;22

DP

If I recall correctly. So the coffers create a kind of structural grid. And there also the concrete is thinned out toward the center in order to make the concrete lighter so that it actually works. So it's a really interesting idea. I can't wait to get into how these masons and you guys work this whole thing out.

 

00;16;26;25 - 00;17;52;15

EP

But again, yeah, using the idea of the coffered dome as a way to catch light, in a way to show the passage of time, but also to create something that's massive and feels permanent and feels welcoming in a way too, because of the volume of the space that became sort of our inspiration for the exterior, we made many iterations on exactly how we can capture so depths out of an otherwise flat wall.

 

Some of the spaces of this building are large. There's an auditorium space that has a very tall volume of space, and we didn't want any windows on the exterior of that. So what do you do with an 18 foot high brick wall? We had some ideas. We had some great ideas on how to make some depth, how to make the building feel enticing, and to take light differently in the morning than it would in the afternoon.

 

The colors change as light conditions change across it. So we took that detail and wrapped the entire building with it. Once we came up with the one that we liked, we just used that module in a number of different ways. It gave us a chance to explore the depths of the wall. There's was only four inches from the outside base of the brick to the back, but the subtlety of how we either could build the brick or slope them and step them back gave us opportunity to get nuances out of the shadows that you wouldn't think were possible out of a four inch gap there.

 

00;17;52;17 - 00;18;02;29

DP

So there's a lot to talk about here. I guess my first question is, did you have to make the exterior walls four inches deeper in order to accommodate that four inch dimension?

 

00;18;03;01 - 00;18;43;15

EP

We did, yeah. We took our typical brick cavity of maybe an inch to two inches and pushed that to more like four inches. So we had the ability to still have that drainage plain, still have proper brick detailing, but we also then had that depth to work with. So the base of the building is a calcium silicate sandstone looking product.

 

And behind that we just had some for CMU to help build out that mass, the typical Western Reserve style, you'd see a sandstone base. We embraced that idea kind of let that be the place that everything else would be housed on and then use that brick to start to articulate the facade and explore that depth.

 

00;18;43;18 - 00;18;47;19

DP

So when you guys drew this, did you draw it in both 2D and 3D?

 

00;18;47;22 - 00;20;01;13

EP

We sure did. And in fact, we went a step further and actually built a physical model. We were still in lockdown from COVID at this point, so maybe had a little more free time on my hands than I normally would have. But I thought it would be a great opportunity to take our digital models, our sketches, some of our inspiration images, and actually build a physical mockup of what that detail could look like.

 

So I went on Amazon and bought some small little bricks that I think are used to build dollhouses or maybe model train environments and actually built it. I built a whole panel of the quarter coffer detail and I had fun with it. I learned some ideas about how to detail it more appropriately. I think the Masons laughed a little bit when I brought it out on site to show them what I was thinking, but I think they also respected the fact that I took the time to try to communicate our ideas in that way.

 

But we use building information, modeling software called Revit that helps us visualize the materials in our digital environment. But building it in a physical sense, gave us opportunity to really kind of see the way light shines on it in a real world. So we built it at one inch to a foot scale. So it was about two feet tall, not a small model, but they had a lot of fun with that.

 

00;20;01;15 - 00;20;22;01

DP

It sounds really cool. You know, one of the things that's really elegant about this detail, I don't recall how many steps are in the coffers at the Pantheon, maybe two or three, but this has many as a series of steps. And each one of those what's the distance on each one? A quarter of an inch or a half of an inch?

 

00;20;22;03 - 00;20;23;29

EP

It's about a quarter of an inch. Yeah, you're right.

 

00;20;24;02 - 00;20;26;18

DP

Yeah. So it's super subtle.

 

00;20;26;21 - 00;20;55;16

EP

Yes, exactly. And then certain points the day you don't even appreciate the fact that they are going up, other times a day when the sun's more an oblique angle, you get lots of shadow, lots of kind of linear lines that come out of that that completely change the look of the building and that's what we really enjoyed is from the morning light to the evening light, sort of subtle and soft.

 

And then by the afternoon you really get some stark shadows and some really striking depth out of that detail.

 

00;20;55;23 - 00;21;21;27

DP

What I love about this show is the guests that we have, they're architects, but they're doing what we're taught to do in school, right? I mean, that's really think about what you're doing. So another architect in my mind, most architects would take this project and do, as I said earlier, something very straightforward, right? They just take the easy way out and do a really simple facade. But you guys really thought through this to an absolutely beautiful detail.

 

00;21;22;01 - 00;21;22;13

EP

Thank you.

 

00;21;22;19 - 00;21;26;13

DP

So was sustainability an issue ever for the building's design?

 

00;21;26;15 - 00;23;32;11

EP

It was. We didn't pursue LEED certification for this project, but we certainly wanted to be mindful about sustainability, the longevity of this building, hopefully being in service for many decades. We wanted the building to be an asset to the City of Westlake and something that they can be proud of for the long term. So as I mentioned before, you know, accessibility users had to come first, but we saw it a lot about natural light.

 

For instance, how do we bring light into all those spaces in ways that enhance the user experience and avoid glare and make the building kind of energized in that way? So lighting was one of the really great tools that we used in this project to just flood the spaces with light in different ways that make the spaces more exciting and at the same time more sustainable.

 

We have a light harvesting, daylight harvesting system in the building. So if there's enough natural light to the exterior, the interior lights dim automatically. So in the evenings obviously the lights come back up to provide the lighting the way we needed to. You know, thinking about resiliency, Masonry is a wonderful product for public buildings. This building, as I mentioned, will be in service for 50 years, hopefully.

 

So throughout that time, we really hope that the bricks will serve them well and be a good investment in the future in that building. So the envelope of building behind the masonry veneer, we really invested in a fluid wall system that provides that thermal barrier that we need. We had a sheeting product that has a factory applied weather barrier, so the whole system came together great.

 

We had a rigid insulation continuous around the entire building and even filled the cavity of the metal studs behind it with spray foam. So we have a really tight envelope there. We have a lot of masonry in the buildings, kind of these two flanking bars that are mostly masonry. And in the middle of the building is very transparent, very open.

 

So we have a lot of glazing through the middle of the building. We found a glazing product that had high energy performance for us there to mimic the performance in the masonry.

 

00;23;32;14 - 00;23;41;07

DP

So you guys clearly learned a little bit more about using brick masonry. Have you guys used this idea again in other projects or something similar to it?

 

00;23;41;14 - 00;24;18;20

EP

That's a good question. We try to be unique. We try to have each project be a new challenge and a new opportunity to try to use Masonry in a new way. So in some ways we learned some detailing, we learned some constraints, we learned some construction methodologies that we've certainly taken forward. But I don't know that we'll use this exact same detail again.

 

I think we'll find a way to continue to innovate. For me anyways, I'd like to do something a little new. Each project. I think that's what architects can do for a project too. If we did another senior center, I think we would take a completely new look at it. I don't think we would try to replicate really anything. It's a new adventure.

 

00;24;18;25 - 00;24;24;17

DP

That's great to hear. Spoken like a true architect. So did you guys have any trouble finding a good mason?

 

00;24;24;19 - 00;25;45;08

EP

The contractor we worked with had a mason that was under their umbrella. They self perform masonry. So when they were building the project, they had a lot of questions and we had a lot of good conversations with them very early on. And really happy with the product. We got Mason's insight. They were passionate about their craft, they were excited for the challenge.

 

We had a lot of good collaboration back and forth. They were calling me throughout the day asking me, Are we doing this right or understanding what you're looking for? Or even, Hey, you know, we've got an idea that can make it even better. Or what about this? So having that energy, having that connection with the craftspeople that are doing the work I think is really important.

 

You know, a lot of times as architects, we do our drawings, they go out the door, somebody else builds it, and there's really never that opportunity to kind of interface with the folks that are actually doing that work. In this case, though, we built a great relationship. I'd be very happy to work with those guys again. They were wonderful.

 

They were even some younger apprentices that were on the job that I think had never really done any projects before, let alone something with this amount of care. So I think they learned a lot. I think the foremen on the job had a chance to teach a lot, so I hope they were inspired by the project and would move forward with a renewed passion for the profession.

 

00;25;45;11 - 00;26;01;27

DP

I hear a lot about how difficult it is to find people to learn masonry, so it's good to hear that there are people out there learning the craft. So back to the mock up real quickly. So you clearly did a mock up. Did these guys then do one giant panel for you before they got rolling?

 

00;26;01;29 - 00;28;05;16

EP

That's a great question. So the International Masonry Institute, first of all, they are wonderful resource. The people. There are just a wealth of knowledge and they're there to help you answer questions, help you work through details. So I engage with them quite often when we're looking at some of these details, it's always good to get a second set of eyes, or many of those people actually were Masons or worked in the trades in some capacity.

 

So they may have some wisdom on other means and methods of how to install that. But in this particular project we engage them and asked if we could build a mock up very early in the design process to test out some ideas. We had some thoughts about can we make precast lintels with bricks formed into a concrete beam to accomplish some of those steps that we had?

 

Could we run stainless steel rods through the brick cores and kind of build a structure that way? But we ended up doing a little more traditional lintels to accomplish that goal. But we did have a chance to explore those ideas. And so the great thing there they have apprentices that are coming through the training program that are available to help build mockups.

 

So as an architect, I get a chance to interface with the future of the masonry profession. They get a chance to work with an architect very early in their trainings and look at drawings and start to understand how to read drawings and how to interface with design professionals. So very thankful for that resource and it's actually very close as well.

 

It's only maybe a half hour away. So we had the Masons that were building the job look at some of the photos we did of the mockup. We had some diagrams of how those bricks could come together and we had the trainers out there at the center available to answer any questions about how big do our anchors need to be or how are we detailing the flashing at some of these connections or interfacing with the international Masons, who is just a wonderful opportunity.

 

I don't think they're sick of me coming out there yet and borrowing their apprentices. So I'll keep taking them up on the opportunity.

 

00;28;05;23 - 00;28;17;27

DP

Great to hear. So switching gears, Eric, you're a young and successful guy. Do you have any advice for young architects out there that's been helpful to you along your journey?

 

00;28;18;00 - 00;29;41;27

EP

Boy, how much time do we have? I guess, you know, for me, I think you brought up a good point earlier that sometimes the easy thing to do is kind of what's expected. We always have budgets, we always have schedules. We have all these constraints that seem to limit our ability to create and be creative and innovate on, you know, brick.

 

We used a modular brick unit and got a really different result out of it than maybe otherwise could have been possible. So I think it's important to remember what we passionate about and trying to find the time to make that a priority in the project. You know, the client didn't come to us necessarily and say we want a really cool brick detail. We want something that's different. We had to kind of convince them that this building is worth investing in. It's worth doing something a little bit different. It wants to have its own identity and it also wants to fit into the context from a couple thousand feet away. You wouldn't really notice some of those details as you get closer to the building and more intimate with the spaces, that's when you really start to appreciate some of the richness.

 

And the end users of the building are what it's all about. They're the ones that are going to this building, hopefully being inspired by the brick by the other details of the project. To me, that's what it's all about. So we certainly could have taken the easy road and just made it a flat brick wall. But we wanted to do a little better for those people.

 

00;29;41;29 - 00;29;50;11

DP

There are going to be people that want me to ask, Did it cost more because you ended up making the exterior detailing more challenging?

 

00;29;50;14 - 00;30;47;03

EP

I would have to say that the material cost was about the same. We still use the same quantity of brick as we otherwise would have. The labor that went into it, I think was a little more time consuming. So again, having that early opportunity to collaborate with those Masons explained to them the goals, explained to them that he once you do this detail, once it repeats around the building, figure out a methodology to accomplish this and then just keep doing it.

 

So they came up with some pretty interesting ways. It's always fascinating to see the Masons out there in the field working, but using plumb bobs and using some wooden kind of jigs to help establish some of those flat planes that are pushed in. How do we measure the corbels that are coming out? They had built some jigs that would help repeat that pattern, so they got innovative out there in the field as well and found some ways to speed up that process, but certainly was more time consuming than just your typical one on top of two.

 

00;30;47;09 - 00;30;54;12

DP

Yeah, but it didn't break the bank, right? I mean, it was something they thought, hey, let's just do this. And it was well worth it in my opinion.

 

00;30;54;14 - 00;31;27;04

EP

It took a little convincing. I had to prove to them that this effect, this detail, would be something that is worth investing in. And I think, you know, if more people were to put some challenges out there to the Masons and maybe help them make this more the norm, it wouldn't take quite as much convincing. But I think at the end of the day, the Masons went into it with a little bit of concerns.

 

They were a little unsure, but it was really awesome to see throughout the project. They really start to take pride in it and really get excited about the project. It was a great relationship.

 

00;31;27;06 - 00;31;34;05

DP

Eric it’s been great to have you here today. Thanks so much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about DS Architecture and yourself?

 

00;31;34;07 - 00;32;50;03

EP

We have our web site, DSArchitecture.com. We're located downtown Cleveland in Playhouse Square on the ground floor. So we actually have the model I was describing to you in our window there. So anybody is walking by downtown, Cleveland, pop by and take a look at it and some other fun details we've developed. Stop in. I'd love to talk with you more.

 

Just a quick anecdote, too. As I was talking earlier, you know, the end users of these buildings are really what it's all about. And someone who goes this facility in Westlake happened to be downtown, saw a logo in our lobby area and actually came in just to thank us. And in this particular detail, he was thanking us for is the way we built in some handrails into the walls of a donut kind of hallway that we built in it.

 

And you don't know that it's a handrail, It's a flat panel. It's kind of rounded top to it and a little bit of a recess. And again, it's to give people dignity. If you're walking from the classroom to the bathrooms and you need to take a break for a moment to catch your breath, you've got a way to do that that doesn't make you feel feeble or like you're meeting assistance.

 

And this gentleman just came into thank us for being that thoughtful. And, you know, it's those kind of details and those kind of moments that just really made this profession so enjoyable.

 

00;32;50;10 - 00;33;02;05

DP

Wow, great story. I can't imagine many architects get to say somebody stopped in to tell them how excited they were about a detail or about something about their building. I'm sure that made you feel great.

 

00;33;02;08 - 00;33;02;27

EP

It was incredible.

 

00;33;03;02 - 00;33;05;23

DP

Well, thank you very much, Eric. It's been a pleasure having you today.

 

00;33;06;00 - 00;33;09;06

EP

Thank you, guys. I appreciate it.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;05;27 - 00;00;29;07

SN

It's a very faithful rendition of what's known as Collegiate Gothic. It is very much in step with this long-established tradition of higher education that goes back to the church in Europe and then institutions like Oxford and Cambridge. And then it comes over to the states with institutions like Harvard and Yale, who are doing very much the same thing. They were trying to identify with this established tradition.

 

00;00;29;14 - 00;02;24;07

DP

This is my guest, Steve Knight. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault we’ll highlight Steve's project, the Nicholas S. Zeppos College Building at Vanderbilt University.

The Nicholas S. Zeppos College Building is several thousand square feet, five stories with a large tower at one end. The building is red brick and limestone, designed in the collegiate Gothic style. The building has a slate roof, slate dormers, large brick chimney masses, limestone window frames and quoins, multi-story window bays, gable forms across the facade, and limestone gothic arches, a tall square picturesque tower with chamfered corners, polychromatic brickwork and limestone cap rounds out the building at one end.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Today we're talking to Steve Knight, who led the team designing the Nicholas S. Zeppos College at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Steve is a member of the American Institute of Architects and he's a principal with David M. Schwarz Architects. He studied at North Carolina State University, where he received his Master of Architecture. That same year, he joined David M. Schwarz Architects. Steve primarily focuses on his firm's performing arts venue projects. He served as project architect for the design of the Schermerhorn Symphony Center, the Palladium at the Center for Performing Arts, the Gilliard center, and most recently, an 8000-seat amphitheater in Huntsville, Alabama.

Among other projects, he's currently leading the offices team on the design of the multiphase residential college project at Vanderbilt University. The Nicholas S. Zeppos College Building is one of four residential buildings for DMS at Vanderbilt University. So let's get into the details. Welcome, Steve.

 

00;02;24;14 - 00;02;25;28

SN

Greetings, Doug. Good to be here.

 

00;02;26;08 - 00;02;30;09

DP

So, tell us a little bit about your firm, David M. Schwarz Architects.

 

00;02;30;20 - 00;03;04;27

SN

Sure. We're a mid-sized design architect and planning firm. We're based in Washington, D.C. We have about 35 design architects on staff. We were started in the mid-seventies by our founder, David M. Schwarz.

It was a really interesting time to start an architecture firm in Washington and in the U.S., really. And there are two pivotal things that happened in the late seventies. The first was the district passed one of the most stringent historic preservation ordinances in the country. And on the heels of that, the federal government enacted tax credits for historic preservation.

 

00;03;04;27 - 00;03;06;22

DP

Really? How fortuitous.

 

00;03;07;00 - 00;03;43;12

SN

So, we found ourselves, the firm at the time - this is before my time there, obviously - but we found ourselves working in newly established historic districts on landmark designated buildings, and it really informed how we think about architecture that architecture is - it's very important that it responds very carefully to the context around it. Each building is part of a larger ecosystem that creates meaningful places, beautiful places to walk, live, places that are memorable. That really is a kind of a train of thought that I think we've carried through all of our work to this day.

 

00;03;43;20 - 00;03;54;16

DP

So, the greater majority of the work that you guys do is traditional. Has that been challenging in any era over the course of the last 50 years when people were doing more modern architecture and...

 

00;03;54;26 - 00;04;42;08

SN

Well, it certainly is today. We never sought out to be traditional architects in that sense. One project begets another, and like many architects, we sort of get known for our buildings and what we do. And I think in terms of that stylistic leaning, if you will, it's a bit controversial these days, I think, particularly within the architecture design community, where I think there is a tendency amongst the majority to want to look forward in sort of the past is the past, let's look to the present and let's look to the future.

I think for us, architecture is primarily about communication. And what we mean by that is that buildings in their edifices say something to people and it's really important that they engage with the communities that they serve.

 

00;04;42;20 - 00;04;58;02

DP

Yeah, it's interesting talking about classicism, traditional architecture, having a kind of language and speaking to the community in a certain way. Right. It's kind of understandable language for many people. You see, especially in Washington.

 

00;04;58;10 - 00;05;02;25

SN

It is, it's a very legible language of building and design. Absolutely.

 

00;05;03;03 - 00;05;05;14

DP

So, tell us about your role in the office.

 

00;05;05;27 - 00;05;33;12

SN

I'm a principal in the firm. I've been with the firm since I finished graduate school back in the late nineties. I started out as an intern and then, as you could imagine, sort of worked my way up through architect staff and project architect and then project manager. I spend most of my time communicating and working with teams of people in the office. Design, for us, is a very collaborative sport. The office is a very collaborative environment.

 

00;05;33;12 - 00;05;33;28

DP

That's great.

 

00;05;34;05 - 00;05;59;17

SN

I think one of the most interesting things to me is the founder, David Schwarz. I have rarely ever seen David pick up a pencil and draw something, but he commands a great deal of influence and quality oversight of the firm's body of work, largely through talking to people, getting to know each of us. And I in turn try to do the same.

 

00;05;59;25 - 00;06;02;08

DP

Well, you've been there a long time. It sounds like you've got a great boss.

 

00;06;02;14 - 00;06;07;06

SN

He is a great boss. We got a great group of people around me. I consider myself very lucky.

 

00;06;07;12 - 00;06;20;27

DP

Oh, that's really cool, because, I mean, architecture is challenging enough, right? It's a challenging profession. Very difficult business. We're all architects, right? So, we're all a little self-absorbed. To find somebody you enjoy working with and for is wonderful.

 

00;06;21;02 - 00;06;22;01

SN

Yeah, it's very important.

 

00;06;22;04 - 00;06;34;02

DP

Yeah, that's great. So, let's dig in here. Let's talk about the residential college project at Vanderbilt and specifically the Nicholas S. Zeppos College building. How did your office get this project?

 

00;06;34;15 - 00;07;25;15

SN

Well, it goes back to a master plan study that we did. Oh, at least 15 years ago, we conducted a study. The university was interested in reorganizing student life on campus, and they struck on the idea of the residential college model, which grows out of a very well-established tradition that starts on the other side of the pond by places like Oxford and Cambridge.

And then it comes to the States in the early 20th century with the Ivy League institutions like Yale and Harvard and Princeton. And what they really liked about it was this notion of breaking down the larger student community into smaller communities of a few hundred people. So, we developed this master plan that sort of provided strategic opportunity areas on where these colleges could be located.

 

00;07;25;21 - 00;07;28;28

DP

So, they came to you with this idea. There would be four colleges.

 

00;07;29;06 - 00;07;38;02

SN

They came to us with a very broad idea of, “we want to rethink student life on campus,” and through conversation, the residential college model came out of that.

 

00;07;38;02 - 00;07;38;21

DP

Wonderful.

 

00;07;38;23 - 00;08;00;27

SN

And then opportunity areas across campus. We identified sites. They then constructed what they called the freshman campus, the freshman college, if you will. That's where all first-year students go to live and there was a bit of a lull. And then we sort of came back with this more defined project of the four colleges, of which Nicholas S. Zeppos is number two.

 

00;08;01;08 - 00;08;07;11

DP

So, had you been hired at that point or were you working against other architects to try to get the project?

 

00;08;07;16 - 00;08;17;01

SN

No, we had been hired at that point. We had done other work in Nashville, most notably the Schermerhorn Symphony Center, the Nashville Symphony's concert hall.

 

00;08;17;01 - 00;08;18;02

DP

So, they knew of you.

 

00;08;18;03 - 00;08;22;19

SN

So, they knew of us. And we just developed good, strong relationships in the community.

 

00;08;22;20 - 00;08;31;27

DP

That's great. It's a great way to get jobs. So, can you tell me a little bit about the history of the place, the town, the neighborhood, the buildings around the site?

 

00;08;32;04 - 00;08;52;00

SN

Sure. In Nashville, it's a fascinating city with great heritage and history. One of its monikers is the Athens of the South. They have a full-scale replica of the Parthenon on Centennial Park campus, which is actually just across the West End Boulevard from Vanderbilt.

 

00;08;52;02 - 00;08;55;07

DP

I'm sure I've seen photos of this and have forgotten. That's incredible.

 

00;08;55;17 - 00;08;59;15

SN

It. It really is. Every detail is fully, faithfully executed.

 

00;08;59;16 - 00;09;02;07

DP

I'd love to talk about that some time but go ahead.

 

00;09;02;17 - 00;10;17;15

SN

But that's not why it's called the Athens of the South. It's called the Athens of the south because of the number of institutions of higher learning that one finds there. So, you have Fisk, you have Vanderbilt, many institutions. And it just at a sort of a per capita level. It developed this sort of bookish, erudite culture. Another thing that helped reinforced it was there's a great deal of publishing that happens there, mostly religious, and musical publications.

So anyway, so it's the Athens of the South, so that's really neat. The Vanderbilt history is really interesting because it's basically it's founded as an outgrowth of the Civil War. The institution, it was basically viewed by its namesake who endowed the starting of the university as a kind of a healing moment between the North and the South.

Cornelius Vanderbilt. And he has a statue, obviously, in the heart of campus. The campus itself is - it's a really beautiful green garden-like setting. It does have the classification of being an arboretum because of the number of unique specimens of trees one finds there. The architecture is quite eclectic. Like most campuses, there's a kind of a historic heart of Victorian era buildings and some collegiate gothic buildings as well. And then it sort of evolves over time.

 

00;10;17;24 - 00;10;31;07

DP

So, you touched a little bit on what these college buildings are composed of. Could you give me a little bit more information about the programmatic requirements of each of the four buildings - or let's just stick to the Zeppos College building?

 

00;10;31;12 - 00;12;03;17

SN

Yes. So Zeppos houses 340 students. We typically say beds. It has 340 beds. So that's the lingo in that business, if you will. And it's viewed as a really holistic living environment for students. Not only are there places to sleep, but there are also places to study, places to gather. There are places to eat. There are even accommodations for some resident faculty. Each of the colleges, or at Zeppos, has a family - faculty member and their family has an apartment within the facility. And they help provide leadership and mentorship to the student community.

So, and all of those things are fully realized programmatically with dining facilities. There's a really great dining hall in Zeppos. There's a great room, as we call it, a large living room with wood paneling, courtyards. So there's nice quality, secure, defensible outdoor space for the students to use.

On each of the floors, it was a really interesting challenge because we're dealing with a lot, even within that reduced footprint of only 300 odd beds, it's still a lot of program, a lot of footprint to have to manage. So, to create a sense of place that's navigable and somewhat homelike and approachable and familiar, we did some interesting things within the student floors. There's a lot of articulation in the building massing, and we offset the double loaded corridors to create nodes and they tend to coincide with elevators and stairs so that we create places for students to naturally bump into each other.

 

00;12;04;00 - 00;12;16;08

DP

Well, I'm going to actually ask you about that in just a minute. So first, let's back up and talk a little bit about the site and the topographic features, if there are any. Or are they just completely flat?

 

00;12;16;19 - 00;13;04;06

SN

No, there is a bit of grade change from - I have to get my compass directions right - from east to west. I think what's most interesting about the site is it has kind of a two-sided nature to it. So, on one side is West End Avenue, which is a major east west thoroughfare that connects with downtown Nashville. It's sort of the public face of Vanderbilt. So, the colleges were a real opportunity to sort of enhance the university's image to the outward community.

And then on the other side, the opposite side is a very opposite kind of condition. It's a series of very low scale residential structures that house the Greek community. So, several houses, each one is a fraternity or a sorority. So, we had to respond to two very different contexts on each side of the building.

 

00;13;04;17 - 00;13;08;22

DP

So, tell us a little bit more about the building plan. You started getting into that.

 

00;13;08;29 - 00;13;29;25

SN

Sure. So Zeppos is a figure eight with two courtyards. What makes the figure eight is what we call a double loaded bar, if you will, on the upper student room floors. You have rooms on both sides of a corridor. And again, there's interesting offsets in those corridors and bars to help break down the massing.

 

00;13;30;04 - 00;13;32;25

DP

Does that create these large gables?

 

00;13;33;00 - 00;13;48;03

SN

Yes. And then and then some of the bars, we actually punch through to create Gables to help break down and articulate the massing of the building. It's basically a city block. So, all of those moves are really important to help make the building very approachable and friendly.

 

00;13;48;11 - 00;13;51;14

DP

Are all four college buildings a city block.

 

00;13;51;26 - 00;14;14;09

SN

About. They each layout a little differently from one another. The one immediately to the east of this one, Rothschild College. That one has three courtyards. Due to the particulars of that particular site and obviously what makes the Zeppos college most special amongst the four of them is this 300-foot tower at one end of it.

 

00;14;14;17 - 00;14;20;03

DP

So that's a great segway. Tell us about the style of this building because it's stunning.

 

00;14;20;12 - 00;15;02;06

SN

It's a very faithful rendition of what's known as Collegiate Gothic. It was really very much a communication and really a marketing decision by the university in terms of we looked at lots of different vernaculars. What should these things look like? And the entire team ultimately arrived at Collegiate Gothic is the appropriate response. It is very much in step with this long-established tradition of higher education that goes back to the church in Europe and then institutions like Oxford and Cambridge, and then it comes over to the States with institutions like Harvard and Yale who are doing very much the same thing. They were trying to identify with this established tradition.

 

00;15;02;13 - 00;15;04;13

DP

Really? I mean, it makes perfect sense.

 

00;15;04;14 - 00;15;05;02

SN

Absolutely.

 

00;15;05;13 - 00;15;14;25

DP

So, were there any specific buildings that you can recall that you guys were looking at? The tower looks like it could have been pulled from the facade from a church in Europe. Right? I mean.

 

00;15;15;02 - 00;16;04;01

SN

Sure, we're very eclectic in our approach. We spend a lot of time looking at examples in books. We try to visit places in person, and that was a really important tool at the outset of this project is we actually took members of the client team on a little whirlwind tour of residential college examples around the country. Some examples that we looked to for the tower would be the Harkness Tower at Yale.

A slightly more atypical one that we did look at. It would be the Nebraska state Capitol and I think one feature that we quoted from that one is towards the top of the tower. As it starts to step in, you'll see what we call a little lantern, a little limestone lantern on each of the four corners. That's a common type feature in this style of architecture. When you're creating a tapered tall form like this, we thought it worked very well.

 

00;16;04;09 - 00;16;11;29

DP

And you chose brick for the majority of the material for these exterior facades? Tell me a little bit about that.

 

00;16;12;07 - 00;16;45;17

SN

Well, we always want our buildings to have a really rich palette of materials. And that's true of the interior and, of course, the exterior. So here the palette is a combination of brick, carved Indiana limestone, and then an accent stone, which is called Crab Orchard. It's actually a stone that's native to Tennessee. And we thought that was very appropriate to sort of weave in a local material that one finds in and around Nashville. The brick in particular is really interesting because we knew we didn't want a stark read of just one color.

 

00;16;45;19 - 00;16;48;08

DP

Right. Like if the building was all limestone.

 

00;16;48;08 - 00;17;09;26

SN

Like it was all limestone. And even within the brick itself, it's not just one brick, it's actually a blend of three bricks. And we did lots of mockup panels with the help of a very patient Mason, and a very patient local brick distributor who gave us about an acre of their brickyard to do all these different experiments.

 

00;17;09;27 - 00;17;10;16

DP

That's so cool.

 

00;17;10;16 - 00;17;46;22

SN

We tried different blends and we ultimately settled on a blend of three bricks for the college, and then we further augmented that with what we call decorative bond detailing. So, if you look closely at some of the details, you'll see brick that's fashioned into basket weave patterns, sawtooth patterns, what's known in England as diapering, which is creating a sort of a diamond checkerboard pattern. And we use different bricks for that as well. They tended to be iron spot bricks that are really beautiful because they catch and reflect light in different ways depending on how the sun is hitting them.

 

00;17;47;06 - 00;18;26;25

DP

Yeah, so it's interesting. We've got this polychrome going on, so you guys have the red brick and then I see these diamonds which are made from a different color brick, and then you're taking that one step further. You're backing off the changes in color perhaps, and you're changing the direction of these bricks and the patterns on the interiors.

I mean, it just takes so much time and thought to do everything you guys are doing on these facades. How much time did it take? Just doing like the design work? And who was doing that design work in the office? How were you doing these drawings and how are they being reviewed? I mean, there's a lot going on here.

 

00;18;27;02 - 00;19;17;26

SN

There's a lot there. I mean, the process is really key and it's a very layered process. You don't start out drawing detail. You start out with a parti and then you look at the plan and then you study the massing and then you get to a point and that's schematic design and that was probably about five months. And then we launch into design development.

We are refining the details and that was probably another six months of design development. And within both of those design phases, it's hand sketching, physical study models - we still love doing old fashioned models, just cutting out of cardboard and matte board - as well as two-dimensional drafting. And then, of course, actually three-dimensional modeling and digital modeling in the computer. That was a really key tool.

 

00;19;18;06 - 00;19;22;26

DP

With all these bricks and all those patterns. Must have been an unbelievable process.

 

00;19;22;26 - 00;19;45;28

SN

Yeah. And then it all has to be documented. It's a beautiful project. The standards were very high at the same time we did have a budget and doing cost take-offs at each of the milestone levels of completion - at schematic design and design development - were very important and they caused us to have to do some recalibrating and some adjusting to keep the thing on budget and on track.

 

00;19;46;09 - 00;19;52;23

DP

Yeah, I mean, you sit down with the clients and show them some of this stuff and I'm sure the first words out of their mouths is how much is this going to cost, right?

 

00;19;52;25 - 00;20;12;01

SN

Sure. It's interesting. In the earliest design packages, schematic design, you just can't draw all the detail. So, we actually put photos of collegiate gothic buildings in the drawings to help the contractors really get their head around, okay, this is really complex here. This is not your typical...

 

00;20;12;14 - 00;20;19;14

DP

And there had to have been a lot of handholding in the field too. I mean, a lot of the detail, like the variegated quoins, the quoining on the corners.

 

00;20;19;14 - 00;20;23;19

SN

Yeah. Every one of those stones is actually laid out in the design.

 

00;20;23;27 - 00;20;30;16

DP

All the dimensions, the materiality, the color. Like everything. Wow. So, there's a lot of details.

 

00;20;30;27 - 00;20;39;27

SN

Yes. I mean, it's a phone book level – for anybody who remembers what a phone book is – a phone book thickness level of drawing and documentation.

 

00;20;40;04 - 00;20;51;19

DP

Tell me a little bit about the limestone work, because, again, the level, the detail and the wonderful intricate detailing, I mean, you've got to draw and then you got to find somebody to make that.

 

00;20;51;28 - 00;21;24;16

SN

It's southern Indiana is limestone country. Indiana limestone. It's where the stone is quarried and it's where it is still fabricated. To this day, it is grand tradition. It goes back to the mid-1800s. It had its heyday in the early 20th century with, one just imagines, the proliferation of limestone buildings one finds in any great city in the U.S. and then it gradually tapered off from there after the war in particular. But there are still a few very dedicated fabricator firms that do the what they call the cutting.

 

00;21;24;23 - 00;21;30;24

DP

It had to have been hard to find somebody with so few people doing this kind of - this level of detail work.

 

00;21;31;07 - 00;21;44;12

SN

Well, there's one firm we've worked with on almost all of our projects. And they’re still - this is what they do. They are perfectly set up to do it, Bybee Limestone. We know them very well. We love them and they know us. And they love us too.

 

00;21;44;12 - 00;22;05;24

DP

Yeah, it's stunning. So back to Brick for a second. Did Brick solve any particular design challenges for the architecture for the client? I mean, you touched a little bit on the color, on the exterior and the feel of the architecture, right? We talked about the fact that you make this building all limestone. You got a problem. I mean, it's just a monolith.

 

00;22;06;06 - 00;22;38;17

SN

Yeah, well, it's a very warming material. It's very appropriate, in particular, the way it's used here for what is essentially a residential place. It's a very approachable, it's a very durable material, obviously. And sustainability is very important. We think one of the most important aspects of sustainability is building very consciously, using resources very consciously and very wisely. And in building something that will hopefully be around for a very long time. This building will be around for a very long time.

 

00;22;39;05 - 00;22;45;02

DP

That's for sure. Were there any unique construction details that you guys developed as you were working on this?

 

00;22;45;12 - 00;23;50;11

SN

Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, architecture is a very collaborative sport, and we didn't do this all ourselves. We had a very dedicated architect of record Hastings Architects out of Nashville. They were very faithful in working with us to realize all of the technical detailing, achieve what we're trying to achieve aesthetically, and then a really good contractor late in construction. They were very on top of things the whole way.

I'd say a couple of specifics: one of the things, the details that makes the colleges really fun and interesting are these ornamental chimneys that you find on the roof. And the contractor hit on a really interesting idea because in particular after the previous college where they did not do this, they elected to construct the chimneys on the ground, and then hoist them into place with the tower crane. That allowed them to advance construction on the roof without tying up a huge amount of roof area with scaffolding and preventing them from drying in the building. It was just a much easier erection process down on the ground.

 

00;23;50;21 - 00;23;53;09

DP

You just have boiler flues going through these things. I mean.

 

00;23;53;16 - 00;23;58;06

SN

They're vents, They're flues. Yeah. So, they do they do serve a functional purpose as well.

 

00;23;58;07 - 00;24;05;00

DP

I think that's a wonderful touch. You wouldn't expect to see these chimney masses on a building like that. They really kind of set it apart.

 

00;24;05;07 - 00;24;46;07

SN

One other quick detail is it sort of goes back to the documentation. After we get even through CDs and in construction, there's then what's known as the submittal process where shop drawings are submitted and the contractor hired one firm, an engineering firm that was sort of the central documentation point for all of the masonry. Typically, you would have separate drawings for brick and limestone, and in this case, the Crab Orchard. So, we had one firm that was weaving all of that together. It really helped the coordination and adjustments that had to be made to some of the technical details because it was all in one place. You know, it's also this is modern cavity wall construction.

 

00;24;47;13 - 00;24;49;03

DP

That’s a good point. Okay. So how does that work?

 

00;24;49;11 - 00;25;23;18

SN

So, there's a concrete superstructure between the slabs. We span metal studs. And then much like any building, we pack insulation between the studs. There's exterior rated gyp. board and then a barrier coating that goes over that and then some additional installation in some cases to get the proper R-values. And then the brick is hung off the building. It's built the way modern brick buildings are built today. Cause it really had to be, because that's just how we build - that's how people know how to build. Yet, we're trying to achieve something quite different in the aesthetics.

 

00;25;23;25 - 00;25;26;07

DP

Did you guys use any brick on the interior?

 

00;25;26;18 - 00;26;01;09

SN

So far, no. But there's one last college that's under construction and we were using brick in the dining hall of that one. It'll be a thin brick that's applied to the inside wall surface, but it's been a fun opportunity and a challenge at the same time across four colleges, because we want them all to fit within this collegiate gothic vernacular.

But yet, we want each one to be slightly different, so it's identifiable and to the community that lives there in a larger community as well. So, finding subtle, fun, different things we could do from one to the next was always one of the most interesting and challenging parts of this.

 

00;26;01;21 - 00;26;10;17

DP

I was thinking about while we were talking about the general contractor that you worked with. Was it a bid job or did you guys go immediately to the GC?

 

00;26;10;27 - 00;26;31;26

SN

They were a construction manager. So, they were brought on board early in the process during design. We like working that way because we like getting the technical expertise and input during design. We can constantly be moving forward as opposed to taking three steps back if a contractor comes on much later and says, “I wouldn't have done it that way.”

 

00;26;32;01 - 00;26;37;09

DP

What I was getting at was whether or not you had any challenges finding a really good mason.

 

00;26;37;19 - 00;26;48;06

SN

You know, it's interesting. It's lots of masons. There was a mason subcontractor, but they in turn subcontracted. It would be interesting to ask them. I know it was a challenge.

 

00;26;48;08 - 00;26;50;21

DP

Finding the right people to do the work.

 

00;26;50;21 - 00;26;51;17

SN

The right skill set.

 

00;26;51;23 - 00;26;57;11

DP

It's always a challenge for every architect. So, Steve, what was your favorite part of the project?

 

00;26;57;22 - 00;27;36;01

SN

I really enjoy the design development phase. We're really getting in and figuring out details. It's a level of problem solving that I find really interesting because in the earlier design phase, we sort of setting up the game board and making the major moves, but then to go in and make each one actually work and really figure stuff out and all the tools that we used to do that and it's a really interesting variety of tools, whether it's a half inch scale model of a corbel that's sitting on my desk or a sketch or the digital model, I just find problem solving at that level to be really, really fully engaging and satisfying.

 

00;27;36;10 - 00;28;02;24

DP

It's great. It takes a long time for most people to find what they really love about the profession, right? I mean, some people end up doing everything they've small offices, some people end up doing one thing one or two things inside of an office. It's a challenging business. It's a challenging profession. I think it's really nice that you're as happy as you are doing what you're doing and as good as you are at it. That's wonderful.

 

00;28;03;02 - 00;28;24;05

SN

I think one of the other interesting things, I use the word ownership a lot with the teams in the office and in design development. It's a really great opportunity to give individual young designers pieces of the building to figure out and design. When it's all done, they can come with me to the site and they can look at that point and yeah, I did that. That's really cool.

 

00;28;24;05 - 00;28;30;16

DP

Oh, that's great. So, Steve Knight, it was great to have you here. Where do people go to find you and your firm?

 

00;28;30;20 - 00;28;41;29

SN

Go to our web site www.dmsas.com. And if you're in Washington DC, come by and pay us a visit. 1707 L Street

 

00;28;43;00 - 00;28;47;09

DP

You get to meet some of our listeners. That's wonderful. Well, thank you very much, Steve Knight.

 

00;28;48;00 - 00;28;49;12

SN

Thank you, Doug. It's been a pleasure.

TRANSCRIPT

 

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;12

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;14 - 00;00;30;13

Peter Miller (PM)

Gentrification is always an issue in New York City, and trying to deal with that in a responsible way as an architect is something we often think about. Some people, you know, have a problem with larger buildings, but we're not talking about towers. The most bulk is on avenue is where I think people are a bit more comfortable. And because we're bringing residential into the neighborhood, that's usually something that's appreciated.

 

Everyone in New York believes rents and housing prices are too high and we need a greater supply.

 

00;00;30;18 - 00;01;00;18

DP

This is my guest, Peter Miller. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault we highlight Peter's project 625 Rogers Avenue. 625 Rogers Avenue is the site for a new mixed-use building with a primary use of residential ground level, commercial and community facility uses with a below grade enclosed parking lot. The architectural design for the building divides the overall mass into two distinct volumes a lower and upper.

 

The lower is a rectilinear form that relates to historic buildings in the area. This volume is meant to create a more contextual streetscape and a friendly residential feel. In contrast, the higher recessed form is articulated to relate to the new character of the neighborhood. It steps back and recedes as it rises, making it more private and less visible from the street.

 

The lower form is brick, the upper is stucco, the lower is dark, the upper is light. A side yard is included along the south elevation for more daylight glass and a restaurant terrace. Hi, I'm Doug Pat, and this is Design Vault. Peter Miller is a partner of Palatte Architecture, which he co-founded in 2010. He holds a B.S. in architecture from Washington University in Saint Louis and a master's degree from the Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation at Columbia University.

 

Peter is a director of the Executive Board of AIA New York and a Design for Freedom Working Group member. He's a registered architect with 20 plus years of experience focusing on designing and implementing innovative building systems and components. His notable projects include Grace Farms in New Canaan, Connecticut, The National World War Two Museum in New Orleans, The Revitalization of Forest Park in Saint Louis, the Confluence Masterplan of Missouri and NYC HPD's Small Lots Development Program.

 

Peter's work has won many design awards, including several AIA National Honors Awards and the Mies Crown Hall America's Prize. His work has been featured in Architectural Record, Elder Corps, Fast Company, The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times. He's originally from rural Indiana and is from a family of craftsmen, engineers, entrepreneurs and tinkerers. He treasures the creative process of turning ideas into physical form.

 

So welcome, Peter. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Palatte Architecture in New York City. So it was founded in 2010. Where are you guys located In the city. What's the size of the firm? What type of work do you do?

 

00;03;17;08 - 00;04;01;09

PM

So we're located in the, I like to say the Union Square area. We're on 16th Street and Sixth Avenue. We are 11 people in total, three partners and eight architects. The work that we primarily do is residential in nature. It spans from multifamily, residential in the mid-sized range. 50 dwellings is probably an average size for a mid-sized development to custom residential townhouse projects within the city and custom houses ground up outside of the city.

 

In addition to the residential work, we do a variety of other things early education is a big part of what we do. Preschools, daycares, things of that nature, and some other commercial projects spanning from retail to restaurants.

 

00;04;01;12 - 00;04;02;08

DP

How's business?

 

00;04;02;14 - 00;04;30;04

PM

Businesses up and down. You know, when you own your own business, it's always a rollercoaster. I would say we're busy. There is a lot of work being constructed right now. We have a lot of projects in construction. Design work continues to come in. It's not quite as strong as it was a year ago. I think interest rates are affecting particularly the custom residential side of our business, but the multifamily business continues to be booming. We stay busy.

 

00;04;30;07 - 00;04;31;28

DP

Has the firm grown?

 

00;04;32;01 - 00;04;52;08

PM

We try very hard to stay the same size. We have a team of people that we really like and we trust them. And I think a big part of who we are is the consistency within our office. So when times get slow, we find ways to keep those people productive, and when times are busy, they go the extra mile for us and they put in the extra work.

 

00;04;52;10 - 00;04;59;17

DP

So tell us a little bit about yourself. So how long have you been practicing and what's your role in the office as a partner?

 

00;04;59;20 - 00;06;10;10

PM

So I've been practicing since early 2000s. I attended Columbia University for graduate school and finished in 2006 and spent a better part of a decade working for well-known firms, doing international projects, particularly of like museums and high end residential. We formed Palatte Architecture. I had two business partners, John Sunwoo and Jeff Wanders, and then we met at Columbia in studio, and there was always an idea that we wanted to work together.

 

It took a while. We had our own careers in other firms for a while and came back together and formed the office in 2010, but it took a little while to get off the ground. Within the firm my role is partner. We are fairly equal. It's one of our core elements at Pallet architecture, the three partners. We have complementary skills, but we all can perform anything within the office.

 

Projects are organized where each partner is in charge of one, and then beyond that, we have some other roles. One of my roles is sort of business management and human resources, so I do that in addition to all the design work, the construction administration.

 

00;06;10;09 - 00;06;15;17

DP

All right, so let's dig in here and talk about 625 Rogers Avenue. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;06;15;19 - 00;07;07;25

PM

So this is with a client we've been working with for a while is a little bit of background on Palette Architecture. We really started this firm fairly early in our careers. As such, we didn't have as many connections. A lot of things started out as they do in sort of those classic ideas of architecture. You're doing somebody's bathroom, somebody's kitchen, and then you do a good job and you end up doing their house and eventually you work your way up.

 

So it's been that way. We met this client when we were doing a lot of houses and they were looking to turn a house into a residential building, a multifamily four. So it was to turn like a big townhouse into a four family. And so we did that project for them and we built a relationship that's led to, I think, ten different projects with them now.

 

And this is the latest one. And so they've grown in scale each time. And this one's, I think, 25 units.

 

00;07;08;02 - 00;07;14;29

DP

The project is considerable size. So give us a little history of the location and what was there prior.

 

00;07;15;01 - 00;08;17;11

PM

This is in the Prospect Lefferts neighborhood of Brooklyn. So that is on the northeast side of Prospect Park. We've done a number of projects in this area. The site before this was largely vacant, there was a couple of dilapidated houses in that area. It was mostly a small demo and clearing the project is near the corner of Parkside and Rogers Avenue.

 

Rogers is the major thoroughfare through the Prospect Lefferts neighborhood. We do not have the actual corner lot, which was kind of an unusual situation in terms of design. There is a small brick building on the corner that has a bodega in the ground floor. Adjacent to them there was an easement in place for them to have access to the back of their building.

 

So we have a minimum of eight feet that we needed to keep open between us in their building. So we ended up with a building that had two facades, even though it wasn't on a corner because of the easement.

 

00;08;17;13 - 00;08;22;24

DP

So tell me a little bit about the scope of the project and the client's programmatic requirements.

 

00;08;22;26 - 00;09;08;03

PM

So the scope of the project is largely multi-family residential. As with any case, working with a developer, you know, it's maximizing units and floor area for the residential use. However, because it's on Rogers Avenue, which is a major thoroughfare, there was an overlay for commercial. So there was a desire to try to put as much commercial in here as was viable in terms of sales. On the ground floor we have two commercial spaces. One is designed to be a restaurant and the other is a bit more flexible, likely to be more of a retail establishment. And then in addition, there is a small community facility space on the ground floor. There is a lobby also on the ground floor that leads up to the residential spaces. And there is five floors, two through six, that is residential apartments above.

 

00;09;08;05 - 00;09;12;03

DP

So building plan. Could you describe that on the site shape?

 

 

00;09;12;05 - 00;09;27;04

PM

Yeah. So it's L-shaped, I would say, with one of the major legs being across Rogers Avenue and the other leg running parallel to this easement that I mentioned before. And then there is a courtyard in the back portion of the L.

 

00;09;27;06 - 00;09;33;10

DP

So project restrictions, zoning codes. What were you guys dealing with out there other than the easement?

 

00;09;33;12 - 00;10;21;05

PM

One of the things that has generated a lot of our work in Prospect Lefferts Gardens is there was a zoning change probably about a decade ago that allowed for larger bulk in the area. So a lot of the buildings along Rogers Avenue and in other parts of the neighborhood, are suddenly getting a lot bigger. And in some cases you're seeing full tear downs.

 

In some cases you're seeing vertical enlargements. In our case, it was important to have this contextual approach that some of the smaller buildings were going to remain for decades and others were going to instantly become larger. So we wanted something the span between those. That meant having a form that followed the context of those smaller buildings. So it's larger up to a setback, and then it sets back at the height of our neighbors and then becomes something a bit more fanciful above.

 

00;10;21;07 - 00;10;28;09

DP

I'm thinking about the neighbors, right? And I'm thinking about the neighborhood. And you said these buildings are getting bigger. Is that driving anybody crazy?

 

00;10;28;12 - 00;11;09;05

PM

Oh, certainly. It's a mixed neighborhood and gentrification is always an issue in New York City. And trying to deal with that in a responsible way as an architect is something we often think about. And it's certainly an issue in this neighborhood as well. Some people, you know, have a problem with larger buildings, but we're not talking about towers.

 

The bulk has risen from like four stories to six or seven stories. So it's a bit bigger. The most bulk is on avenues where I think people are a bit more comfortable with it. And because we're bringing residential into the neighborhood, that's usually something that's appreciated. Everyone in New York believes rents and housing prices are too high and that we need a greater supply. So there isn't a lot of tension, I think, on that.

 

00;11;09;08 - 00;11;17;22

DP

What is the city do in terms of review, esthetics and building height? Is there an open meeting and you guys are just about to go into construction?

 

00;11;17;29 - 00;13;21;19

PM

We are in construction. We've been in construction for almost a year. The superstructure is in place. A lot of the interiors are framed out and the building is fully enclosed. At this point, we are about to clad the exterior, so we're pretty far along in construction in terms of the city's take on the shape and the zoning of the building.

 

New York City is fairly as of right city. If you are following the zoning code, zoning text in the building code, you can largely do what you want, but it is fairly constrained, especially if you want to maximize the floor area, maximize the amount of units. So you often find yourself into these rectilinear envelopes if you're trying to maximize, but there's room for play.

 

And I think that's really what we were trying to do with this lower mass, is to build that out, make it very tight and taut and follow the context of the neighborhood. It was a bit more challenging on our site because we also had to deal with this easement. And so the easement is a whole swath of the property that you can't use.

 

You're probably aware, but in New York City, the amount that you can build is a factor of the lot size. So the larger the lot, the more you can build. However, if you're not allowed to build on a portion of the lot, then that same amount of area has to fit into a smaller envelope and so it gets tight.

 

That's kind of what led to the L-shape, is that we couldn't simply do it in a bar building across the main avenue. We had to put some sort of extension on to the back. But we were fortunate that that extension could follow the easement. So we get a lot of natural light and air from that. It's not legal light and air, which I think people from New York will be familiar with, which is something is a requirement for all apartments.

 

But we were able to get that through our courtyard and through our rear exposure. And so this was really like bonus windows and bonus light and air that we could get because of the easement. In addition, this corner building is quite a bit smaller, so we are afforded a lot of wonderful views over the top of it.

 

00;13;21;21 - 00;13;37;24

DP

So tell us a little bit about the design process. I just typed in 625 Rogers Avenue and there's a nice website that comes up and there are some great three dimensional images there that tell me a little bit about the design process. How does that work in your office and how long did it take for this project?

 

 

00;13;37;27 - 00;14;19;02

PM

The design process is usually quite rapid in New York City. I would say the actual meat of the process, which is kind of something that a lot of times you learn in school, you spend some time, you make some models, try out a few renderings and you come up with something and then you say, Well, we're not going to do this part.

 

Let's change it like that. That part of like coming to a form and a floor plan was probably an 8 to 10 week process. And then, of course, there's many stages after that coordinating with structure and mechanical and doing all the fine details and then that sort of thing, Then that's probably another couple of months.

 

00;14;19;04 - 00;14;21;21

DP

So were the clients excited about the project?

 

00;14;21;23 - 00;16;41;07

PM

Yes, they do value design a lot and so they were quite excited about it. I think there was always a question of how were we going to deal with this easement? And I think they were very excited about this idea of this lower box that is contextual. We weren't formally contextual. I think that's also probably important to mention.

 

It is a black brick, so it's not your traditional New York red brick or yellow brick that you might find in there. It is a black brick, so it is meant to pop a bit. What was important to us as a firm was to make something that was formally contextual, didn't look bigger than the neighbors didn't look imposing.

 

We're not interested in a building that like sticks out like a sore thumb. I think a lot of architects think that you need to make something flashy in order to be noticed, and then for people to come and want you to design another flashy thing that wasn't necessarily what we were after. We wanted something that had a calm facade to it and felt a bit like the neighborhood.

 

But this isn't the early 1900s, like the context was built in, so we can't do exactly that. So we were looking for something that was formally similar but materially different. And so we went with this black brick along the lower volume. And then of course we had more area to use and we had to put it somewhere. So we set it back and we gave it more articulation.

 

 

It's a bit of push and pull of rectangular volumes above, but it's a very light color and the idea was always to be set back enough to where it wasn't initially visible. It was more of a second look sort of thing that when you see the building, you're like, Oh, that feels like the size of other buildings in the neighborhood.

 

And then when you look a second time, you’re like actually it is not. And what's going on up above is really articulated and interesting. And why did they do this sort of thing? And the reason why we did a lot of that on the upper volume was to create outdoor spaces. This was a project that was conceived during the pandemic and then finalized throughout that process.

 

There was a lot of interest in our office about making outdoor spaces, particularly private outdoor spaces, beyond the size of balconies, spaces that were more of room size so that you could actually spend time outside with others and you could work outside when the weather is good. So a lot of the articulation on this upper volume was about trying to create private outdoor spaces for each of the interior units.

 

00;16;41;10 - 00;16;45;07

DP

So were there any unique construction details throughout the project?

 

00;16;45;09 - 00;18;20;15

PM

Certainly. And we are talking about brick, I'm sure, today. So I think that has a lot to do with it. We've been finding that thin brick has been really advantageous to us throughout the process. New York City is all about every inch. Every inch matters. Real estate agents will tell you that. So the thin brick does afford us a thinner wall thickness, which allows every unit to be a little bit bigger, the sales area to be a little bit bigger.

 

So that's something we'd like to do. But what we found great about the true brick system, which is what we used, is that it's a mechanically fastened thin brick which affords us new types of details. When you see the classical full brick, you can do corbelling, you can have some bricks, project out from others to create shadow lines and other types of articulation, which wasn't initially available in thin brick because everything just had to sit inside of a tray and anything that projected out would become too much of a load and either pop out.

 

And so what we were really excited about with this thin brick system, the true bricks, is that we could have a variety of brick depths while still saving these inches. And so there was a lot of thought about that in terms of details. We used different depths of thin brick to articulate slab edges and also areas of pattern and texture.

 

So within this brick volume on the base, there are strip windows. In between each strip window. We do have a textured brick that creates a bit of interest. It creates a patterned shadow on the facade, and then that is all captured in between these sort of expressed slab edges.

 

00;18;20;17 - 00;18;24;29

DP

So could you go through a wall section for me? Exterior to interior.?

 

00;18;25;01 -  00;19;29;12

PM

So we have on the exterior a variety of different depth thin bricks that snap into the true bricks tray system, which is sort of like a channel shaped system that is then attached into a kingspan karrier panel. So this is sort of an all in one cladding waterproofing insulation panel. I believe it's an XPS insulation that's wrapped in a metal panel.

 

And these are tongue and groove panels that come together and they're flashed at their tongue and groove. So the metal panel on the outside acts as waterproofing, especially when the joints are flashed. Then there is this completely separated other metal panel on the interior, the separated by this XPS installations that provides your insulation and then that interior panel allows you to attach to the studs.

 

So there's no need for sheathing or waterproofing layer or another set of insulation. It's all in one. So we have that karrier panel and then that is attached to the stud. And then on the interior of the stud we have our finishes, which is general sheetrock.

 

00;19;29;14 - 00;19;33;06

DP

And the installation values of the walls?

 

00;19;33;06 - 00;19;36;24

PM

Two and a half inches. So I'm guessing that's probably about R 14.

 

00;19;36;26 - 00;19;46;17

DP

That sounds really interesting. And using thin brick, I mean it's a veneer like anything anyway, so whether or not you're going to use something that's three and 5/8 thick or it's a half inch thick, it’s still a veneer.

 

00;19;48;19 - 00;20;22;13

PM

100% agree. We live in a world now where energy code and sustainability issues are vitally important. And for the most part we know Brick classically is like a veneer as a cladding and a structural system, but it's just really not done that way anymore. It's mostly a cladding system now because we need to have this rain screen where where air can move behind the facade, and we need continuous insulation.

 

So if it's going to be mostly a veneer. Now I'm a fan of the thin brick systems because it saves you that extra couple of inches.

 

 

00;20;22;16 - 00;20;40;15

DP

Yeah, I totally agree. And you touched on this a little bit. Just back to the esthetics. So tell us about the style choice. The building is contemporary. When I read about the architecture you guys talked about as statically trying to work with the existing architecture in the neighborhood. Tell us a little bit about that.

 

00;20;40;17 - 00;22;28;22

PM

I think it's largely about scale. So as I mentioned, we are trying to create a datum that matches with the neighbor. In terms of height. I think the concern back to what you mentioned before is that people are going to feel like their neighborhood is growing rapidly and that it feels much more urban than it used to. And so that was really important to us in terms of context to make the scale feel as if they had always known this building.

 

Beyond that, we felt that Brick was an important choice. There's a lot of brick in the neighborhood. We felt that other materials might feel too distinct from the rest of the context. I don't think it's important that we try to look exactly like the neighbors because we're in a different era, a different technology. But there needs to be some tie to the way it is.

 

And it was also sort of important to us that the windows had some sort of gridded logic to it to match the neighbors. So there's a nod to that. Beyond that, we felt freedom to go a different way. And so we relied on sort of a color choice as one way to do that, to create this darker volume on the lower part would sort of emphasize the height of the building that it matched the others because it's so present in its darkness.

 

The other thing we liked about the darkness is that it made all the details a bit more subtle. It gave us a little more freedom to do things like these patterned bricks and these shadow lines that indicated that this was a newer building and that it has some innovative techniques and details to it. But wasn't flashy to the point of look at me and forget everyone else in the neighborhood.

 

00;22;28;25 - 00;22;39;02

DP

That's well explained. So when you guys did drawings for the architecture, for the construction process, all 2D, 2D and 3D, Revit, what are you guys working out?

 

00;22;39;02 - 00;23;05;06

PM

Yeah, well, Revit. Our office is 100% BIM. We are an office that was founded since 2010. So the partners, all the employees, we all grew up in this, so we're 100% BIM. We use Revit as our software. So everything is done in Revit from beginning to end. We found this really beneficial with some of our clients too, because we can get the visualizations a lot quicker and that just makes them feel comfortable.

 

00;23;05;08 - 00;23;16;07

DP

Yeah, clients love that. Yeah, for sure. So do you guys learn anything interesting through the design in what you're currently in construction process? Anything new for you as you've been working on the architecture?

 

00;23;16;09 - 00;24;17;03

PM

Well, let's see things that I would want to talk about. Usually the lessons are the things that like you didn't see coming or you feel like you could have control. I think one thing that we really learned on this project is moving to this Kingspan panel that I mentioned before is a new thing for our office. We're doing it on two projects or two simultaneously.

 

We knew a lot about the details going into it and we really believed in it and we love it, but our contractors were not familiar with it and so there was definitely a lot of lessons in how to communicate these details because a lot of them came in and were like, They see these new Legos for the first time and they're like, Oh, they must go together like this.

 

And then you arrive at a site and you say, No, actually you put that piece on wrong. It should be like this. There was a lot of back and forth and learning about how to communicate, when to come in in the process with somebody that hasn't used the technology before and really get them up to speed on it.

 

00;24;17;06 - 00;24;42;15

DP

That's funny, yeah, GCs love that when you walk out into the field and you tell them they're wrong. Yeah, sure. Before you go, Peter, you've been an architect for some time based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for your younger version of you, or maybe for some students or young architects that are just getting rolling?

 

00;24;42;17 - 00;25;03;01

PM

Well, that's a great question. It's easier for me to advise my earlier self than advise a generic architect in school, and I hope this advice applies for me. I was always an introverted sort of person. I come from a very conservative rural background and it took me a while to learn how to really speak my voice to people.

 

And I think in school there's this sense that your work is always out there for critique and that you should be careful about everything you do. I think I've learned over time that as long as you follow your own voice and your own beliefs, that those things will fall in place. And so I would advise myself, when I was younger, to not be concerned about whether or not your voice is going to land perfectly amongst your audience.

 

I think as long as you believe in it passionately and you talk about it strongly and you think about it all the time and you critique yourself, that that will lead to stronger work and it will lead to people wanting to see your work and interact with your work and make sure that it gets built in the way that you had always imagined it.

 

00;25;03;02 - 00;25;51;16

DP

Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way of looking at things right that it will land in the right location. You're just responsible for finding your voice and expressing it as best you can within the framework of the work that you do. That's great. So, Peter, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about Palette Architecture and yourself?

 

00;25;51;19 - 00;26;13;22

PM

Well, certainly you can go to our website, PaletteArch.com, or they can follow us on Instagram also @PaletteArch.

 

00;26;13;24 - 00;26;29;26

DP

Well, Peter, thank you very much. It's been great to have you.

 

 

 

 

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;14

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;17 - 00;00;33;16

John Woelfling (JW)

We looked at that rectangle and where the opportunity was to expand the building horizontally, and then really started to figure out where the best units would be located, where the best apartment layouts would be in the existing building. It was actually a challenge. We were not going to change the fenestration where the windows are located or the size of the windows.

 

So that really dictated a lot of the apartment placements and the size. So I think we were pretty clever about putting all the like fundamentals and figuring out how the floorplan would come together.

 

00;00;33;23 - 00;03;17;20

DP

This is my guest, John Woelfling. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we highlight John's project 50 Nevins Street. 50 Nevins Street is located in downtown Brooklyn. It literally appears to be two buildings in one. The approach was to reinvigorate a century old building through gut renovation and addition, which provides affordable housing, housing for formerly homeless individuals and mental health services.

 

The historic site, with its new ten story addition, features 129 new apartments. The building was originally designed by famed Brooklyn architect Frank Freeman, opened in 1913 as a YWCA. In the early 1930s an extensive portion of the building was shaved off to enlarge. Schermerhorn Street and make way for the subway line. That adjustment resulted in an imbalance to the original Colonial Revival building.

 

The new couple design ascribes value to the existing building and helps restore the balance it had lost. The existing red brick building remains shorter with a classical cornice. The new building sits slightly taller, flush and adjacent with a recessed connector which visually separates the architecture. The contrast in masonry color, dark connector and stylistic changes to the forms and facades set the two buildings apart esthetically, though clearly their co-combined.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. John Woelfling is a partner at Dattner Architects in New York City and holds a Bachelor of Architecture from Virginia Tech. John leverages his broad experiences working across project types like education, recreation, health care and infrastructure to inform his leadership of the firm's mixed use residential projects.

 

John is a recognized passive house expert. His focus on sustainable design practices is guided by proactive education of evolving green technologies and incorporating them into his work. John's committed to creating sustainable, efficient designs that use an integrated, holistic approach. He frequently lectures about affordable housing and sustainability. Speaking at the Center for Architecture, the New York State AIA, Urban Green and Green Build, Forum for Urban Design, Reimagine Conference and the Phius Passive House Conference.

 

So welcome, John. Nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Dattner Architects in New York City. Where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;17;22 - 00;05;20;11

JW

So Dattner Architects is a firm that's been around for close to 60 years. We are located in Midtown Manhattan, just like a ten minute walk from the studio, so it's nice and easy to get over here. We've been there for a little over a year and a half, but our offices have been in New York City for our entire life of the firm, we’re about 110 people now.

 

I just met with a few people and we're looking at hiring some more people. So it's a good time to be practicing in New York City and working on housing and the wide variety of work that my firm does. We do a mixed bag of cornucopia of project types. We do housing, which is what we're going to talk about today.

 

We do subway stations, we do marine transfer stations for garbage, we do a salt shed here or there, medical health care, schools, libraries, a whole mixture of projects. I'm going to talk about some of the advantages that gives us a little bit further on if we can.

 

One of the projects that you or maybe some of your listeners know is a project that's on the West Side Highway at Spring Street. It is a salt shed. These types of projects that you might normally see that are a salt shed are very utilitarian domes, and they just protect the salt from the elements. But our project, we did something kind of clever, which was we created this shell that was inspired by the crystal and shape of the salt. So it's this kind of crystal that sits along the water along the West Side highway.

 

So if you're going up and down the West Side Highway, you've probably seen this. Keep your eyes open for it now. But that's an example of how my office has this sensibility of taking these very civic things that could be very plain and very understated and look for those opportunities. And sometimes we hit a home run, sometimes, you know, we get on base.

 

But each one of those projects is a real opportunity to take a civic piece of architecture, which is what we do. We do civic architecture, and we look to make the city, the city that we live in the best that it can be. So I'm very proud to be part of the work that we do. It's a large group of people, as I said, 110 people. It's inspiring every day to be able to go into the office and work with such a great group of people.

 

00;05;20;14 - 00;05;37;25

DP

That's so great. I mean, you're doing exactly what you're taught to do in architecture school, right? You're taking advantage of the project at hand, you're being creative, you're being thoughtful, you're impressing the client, you're making beautiful things for people that live in the city. It sounds fun and it's a good time to be working. You said you're busy.

 

00;05;38;02 - 00;06;15;19

JW

Yes, we are busy. We've had some ups and downs. But I do think one of the advantages of our firm is that we have this mixed group of typologies. So, you know, when housing was like going gangbusters a couple of years ago, we were really busy and a lot of our work was housing. But as things have shifted over to more infrastructure, which is actually what we're seeing, we're seeing a lot more investment in infrastructure.

 

We're having those subway type projects, those marine transfer stations, those types of utilitarian transportation and infrastructure projects are taking over a greater percentage of our work. So we're continuing to stay busy. So the old adage of diversifying your portfolio applies to many, many things.

 

00;06;15;21 - 00;06;20;29

DP

So you are a principal in the firm. How long have you been there and what's your role in the office now?

 

00;06;21;01 - 00;08;13;19

JW

So I have been a principal there for 20 years. I've been practicing as an architect in the city for 30 years. So I landed at Dattner relatively early in my career and found it to be a great place to stay and work. So I've been there for that long. One of the things that I focus on now is our housing work, our housing studio.

 

As I mentioned a few minutes ago, the housing work has been a great source of workload in the past decade, 15, ten years. As that work became more and more important in the office, we needed to have leadership to take over and really guide that practice. And one of the things that me and others in the office have been focusing on is integrating really innovative, sustainable design strategies into our housing.

 

And this, I think, has its biggest benefit in affordable housing. The way housing often gets developed in dense urban environments like New York City is that it is the harder to develop sites that are most likely to be affordable housing because they are the less desirable sites, the sites that are either adjacent to a highway, adjacent to a subway, difficult geometry, a lot of rock, some sort of challenging situation, which thank you for the recognition that my firm and me personally are doing what architects are trained to do looking at these challenges and finding the opportunities.

 

So that's what we do. We often are faced with challenging sites that maybe are right near infrastructure that is really adding to pollution and environmental degradation. So this idea of sustainable, affordable housing I think is really in our work translated into environmental justice, taking people who might normally live in these underserved communities that have this infrastructure and a real inequity for environmental considerations and trying to make that better. And one of the ways we do that is through Passive House.

 

00;08;13;21 - 00;08;20;04

DP

So let's dig in here and talk about our building. Tell us a little bit about 50 Nevins Street. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;08;20;06 - 00;10;13;14

JW

So one of our clients, ICL, which stands for Institute for Community Living, and they are a not for profit organization that does just tremendous, phenomenal work in the city, serving really at-risk underserved people in New York City. They owned this building. They purchased it in 1986. As you mentioned in the intro, it was originally designed as a YWCA as an SRO, a single room occupancy building.

 

So all the rooms were like single bedded rooms. There was a common cafeteria and kitchen and common bathing facilities. So it was like really stacking people in. And this was like an old model of housing people that was, you know, appropriate at a certain time in the city's history. But not really contemporary residential standards, what we would expect today.

 

So that was kind of the history of this building. You also mentioned the shaving off of the north end of the building, which actually we suspected that through some research, but we didn't really get it confirmed until we got into the building and started doing the demolition and saw, oh, this is where they replaced this column with a different type of steel that was in the original building.

 

It was riveted steel. In the new portion it was rolled sections. We'd see the back up wall or actually the composite wall. And the original building was all brickwork. It was all bonded brick wall in the new building in the modified part that happened when they widened the street, it became a terracotta block back up with then the finished brick in front, the window details were different. So it was actually really interesting to have that kind of confirmation and see it once the demo all happened. The building has this legacy of being modified and I think serving the greater good, the widening of the street and the shaving off of 20 feet of the building was done so that there would be this greater public amenity of the subway station that would be improve the life of all New Yorkers.

 

00;10;13;16 - 00;10;18;24

DP

Yeah, interesting. It's all related. So what was the building next to your building?

 

00;10;18;27 - 00;11;33;13

JW

The building next to our building was a recently constructed hotel, which was a very different building type, superstructure type construction techniques, and much taller than the existing building as well. So it was a really dominating presence. So one of the things that we tried to do and I think we were pretty successful is kind of mitigate that presence.

 

It was just to the west of our site. But yeah, we wanted to kind of bridge that more contemporary with the traditional classic building that was retained on the site. The strategy that we employed for the redevelopment was to expand the building both vertically and horizontally. The horizontal piece was easy. You just, you know, you build next to the building.

 

There was a parking lot. Basically a service area for the existing building, which is, you know, very handsome pre-war building. But that pre-war building kind of vintage came with a lot of burdens or a lot of legacy issues that made the building more difficult to use as a contemporary building that needed to be handicapped accessible.

 

The systems were out of date really at the end of their service life. So we had to do some major kind of heroic things to this existing building to keep it.

 

00;11;33;13 - 00;11;34;14

DP

And you wanted to keep it?

 

00;11;34;21 - 00;12;03;18

JW

Yeah, absolutely. It was such a handsome building also, I've mentioned sustainable design, but one of the most sustainable things that you can do if you're doing a project is to keep an existing building, keep the shell, keep as much as you can. Now, obviously, you've got to like do some demolition and throw some materials away. But if you can keep that building out of the landfill, keep that building from having to be shipped to the landfill and all the energy that goes into that retaining that energy that was originally used to build the building, that's one of the most sustainable things that you can do of all.

 

00;12;03;24 - 00;12;06;09

DP

So tell me, is the subway system still there?

 

00;12;06;11 - 00;12;21;03

JW

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. We don't quite feel it rumbling in the building when it goes by, but there were some really special supportive excavation considerations that we had to do. We had to be really concerned about settlement. So there was a lot of thought put into the foundations of this building.

 

00;12;21;03 - 00;12;22;27

DP

Yeah, the new foundations.

 

00;12;23;00 - 00;13;57;28

JW

So the new foundations were complicated. The existing building foundations were also complicated. When we did this vertical expansion above the existing building, I mentioned earlier the term heroic, and it really was heroic. I mean, when I look back on this, I think, Oh my God, what was I thinking? And we actually convinced somebody to do this. We convinced a contractor to do this.

 

We convinced our client, which, you know, there are great clients. I don't want to make it sound like I've deceived them, but it was a really courageous project to both undertake by all parties. In the existing building we built above, there was additional load that we were superimposing on the existing superstructure in that building. We had to brace one of the columns so that we could lower the footing and increase the size of the footing.

 

And the way we did that was and when I say we, I mean it's really the contractor that did this. We came up with the concept, but they executed it. There was a huge beam that was spanned from one column to another that supported this column temporarily, that we were going to lower the footing on, and they jacked that beam up and supported that column so that the existing footing that was undersized could be pulled out, excavated further down, and then a new footing could be introduced and an extension of the column.

 

So gutsy acrobatics to do this. And the way they tested whether that beam, a temporary beam that was put in, whether it separated the footing from the column, was they took a piece of paper and they slipped it between the footing and the base plate of the column to see if it was actually separated. So they wanted to test that to make sure there was daylight before they pulled out that existing footing. Phenomenal construction sequencing and logistics. It was a gutsy project I'm very proud of.

 

00;13;58;01 - 00;14;00;21

DP

So what were the project restrictions like for you guys?

 

00;14;00;26 - 00;15;33;11

JW

So there were a couple of restrictions. When we first started looking at this, we wanted to increase the density of the project because it was a rare kind of once in a building's lifetime opportunity to increase the amount of affordable and supportive housing that could be provided in downtown Brooklyn. So our client ICL, knew that this was kind of their one chance.

 

So we looked at a couple ideas, a couple of options, and to get to 129 units, we had to bend, maybe break the rules of the New York City zoning resolution. And the way you do that is you go through something called a ULURP. It's a process that involves community engagement. It involves talking to city planning, New York City city planning departments, and doing something that is not as of right.

 

The current zoning resolution and building code allow you to build certain things. As long as you get approval from the Department of Buildings, you can build those. But we needed to bend the rules here or break the rules to make this actually happen. So we went to the various city agencies, went to community boards and made this proposal to expand the building vertically, to increase the floor area ratio, the amount of floor area that you can build on the site.

 

And we were successful in that because I think a lot of these stakeholders recognized that this project was going to really make a difference to so many people's lives and be a community asset. So normally we've all heard the term NIMBY, not in my backyard. Normally. That's one of the things that we bought up against when we do these types of projects and there was some of that, but I think it was much more toned down because people recognized the benefit of this project.

 

00;15;33;18 - 00;15;37;18

DP

So did you guys have the building completely designed when you went to the people?

 

00;15;37;21 - 00;15;48;12

JW

No. We had the vision. We kind of had a good idea how many units were going to go into the building. We knew what the program was going to be. We had some of the renderings completed because that's really important to making that pitch to stakeholders.

 

00;15;48;18 - 00;15;51;24

DP

What about height requirements for you guys? What limited you?

 

00;15;52;00 - 00;16;15;09

JW

I'm going to try not to get too much into the weeds and the zoning resolution, but this is it actually falls into a limited height district in downtown Brooklyn, which we adhered to, but we needed the increased floor area. The height was somewhat limiting, but there were other limitations on the building as well. We could only add so many floors onto the existing building before we kind of maxed out on what we could really feasibly do with the existing foundations and the existing superstructure.

 

00;16;15;11 - 00;16;24;13

DP

So let's talk a little bit about the building plan. So the existing building is like a long rectangle. So what did you guys do with your additions?

 

00;16;24;15 - 00;17;55;23

JW

So one of the really critical things for affordable housing in most housing, all housing is efficiency. And the efficiency was really driven by the desire to maximize the number of units that we could put here so we could serve the most people. So we looked at that rectangle and where the opportunity was to expand the building horizontal lean and located our cores, our elevator and our stairs in a spot that worked best for that, and then really started to figure out where the best units would be located, where the best apartment layouts would be. In the existing building, it was actually a challenge. We were not going to change the fenestration where the windows are located or the size of the windows. So that really dictated a lot of the apartment placements and the size. New York City has something called light and air requirements for the apartments, you need to have a certain size window for a certain size room, and you can't go below that for both light daylight and ventilation.

 

So the existing building’s layout was determined largely not completely, but largely by the existing fenestration layout. And then we had more flexibility in the new building portion, but that was also a challenge because it was a very limited floor plates and it really had to integrate with the existing building. We had corridors that we had to figure out.

 

We placed the elevator in the inside corner where the two buildings meet, because that's a place where you can't really put apartments because there's no windows there. So I think we were pretty clever about putting all the, like, fundamentals and figuring out how the floor plan would come together.

 

00;17;55;25 - 00;18;01;04

DP

How did the apartment sizes compare from the old building to the new building? Are they exactly the same?

 

00;18;01;06 - 00;18;57;09

JW

No, it is dramatically different. The original SRO, the single room occupancy, I mean, the rooms were eight feet wide, ten feet deep. So really puny and not in any way contemporary or fair housing model for the residents that were going to come back. So we basically blew out all those interior partitions and relaid out the building interiors.

 

The original building was actually a double loaded corridor. And when I said below the corridor, I mean there's a hallway down the middle and it's got apartments on either side, fairly efficient way to do it. But it was such a narrow building and the site is so narrow that when we redid the building in this more contemporary model of apartments, we couldn't fit a double loaded corridor in there.

 

So it's really a single loaded corridor in the existing building. In the new building, we had more flexibility in the site dimension, so we were able to do a double loaded corridor in that portion. But it was, yeah, a real challenge to adapt the existing building. But as I said, you know, it's one of the most sustainable things you can do.

 

00;18;57;16 - 00;19;01;06

DP

Are the apartments a lot larger in the new building and the windows taller?

 

00;19;01;12 - 00;20;38;07

JW

I would say in the new building, no, they're not significantly larger. They're just kind of what they are. I think the windows are maybe a little bit taller, certainly wider. We wanted to have some affinity between the two buildings. We didn't want to have like completely different fenestration sizes, which really I think would be inequitable to the people who would move into this building.

 

But we did in many ways, we made the new building distinct from the existing building. You go around New York City or any other city that's been around for a while and you see these buildings that are historic and have been adapted. You know, there's a couple of ways you can do it. You can either be matchy matchy about it and try to replicate in new construction and new materials a very similar thing.

 

And that's usually pretty apparent. It's never seamless, even if you could make it perfectly matching, I just don't think that's genuine. I don't think it's a truthful representation of where we are in the construction and it's not necessary. There may be times when it's merited, but it shouldn't be your knee jerk reaction. It shouldn't be the starting point.

 

So one way is to be absolutely seamless about it. One is to put a cap on top of the building. But we wanted to make this building really tell a story about the history of it. So we basically wrapped this new piece of contemporary construction up in around the existing building and allowed it to kind of finish off the existing building.

 

You mentioned earlier some of the adaptations that have happened to the building that I think really compromised the original integrity of the design, the symmetry and the way the building ended. So I think we kind of rectified that with this new construction that comes over the top and helps finish the building in a way that I think looks more appropriate.

 

00;20;38;12 - 00;20;42;27

DP

So tell me about the cornice on the existing building. Is that new or was that there?

 

00;20;43;02 - 00;20;51;14

JW

That's actually a really interesting question. The cornice we thought from the street level. Oh, that's the original cornice. It looks very detailed and looks contemporary on the building.

 

00;20;51;16 - 00;20;52;11

DP

It's gigantic.

 

00;20;52;11 - 00;21;05;12

JW

It's gigantic. Yeah, it's probably four feet tall and overhangs three feet. It's yeah, it's enormous. But we got up there and when we started to do that demolition that I mentioned earlier, it's made of fiberglass. So it was actually done some time, I think in the…

 

00;21;05;12 - 00;21;06;06

DP

Sixties or so?

 

00;21;06;06 - 00;21;27;27

JW

I think it was actually in the eighties. I think after ICL originally bought the building, they did a couple modifications to make it better suit their needs, not to the extent that we'd most recently renovated, but they, I think, replaced the existing cornice with a fiberglass one. The fiberglass one is in great shape. We kept it. We like took it off where we had to for construction sequencing and logistics, but then put the thing back and just re-caulked it. It's done now.

 

00;21;27;28 - 00;21;40;09

DP

But it's a great cap to the existing building and it really sets the two buildings apart. And when you look at the additions, it all kind of makes sense. And that cornice I think does a lot to do that.

 

00;21;40;14 - 00;21;53;23

JW

Yeah, it's a very formal gesture, that retaining it and then allowing that to be part of this kind of bridge. In this reveal that you also mentioned earlier, the reveal is very intentional to help make that separation very visible and legible.

 

00;21;53;29 - 00;22;01;25

DP

So did you guys have to make many structural changes to the existing building? You gutted it and it's steel? On the interior?

 

00;22;01;25 - 00;22;06;18

JW

Steel frames, multi exterior wall. We did do window replacements.

 

00;22;06;20 - 00;22;08;26

DP

Changed the way the walls are insulated?

 

00;22;08;29 - 00;23;14;11

JW

We did, yeah. We did a spray-on insulation. I know there's some critique of spray on insulation, but it really was the right material for this because it gave us our vapor barrier and our improved insulation all in one shot. But yeah, we did that on the inside of the building. One of the principles of Passive House, which is a system to really decrease the building's energy requirements, you significantly drive down the energy loads in a building using the system.

 

And the way you do that is a high performance building exterior. That's one of the strategies, is you make a high performance building exterior, which is both your windows and your insulation and your continuity of the insulation and your air vapor barrier. So in historic buildings you're somewhat limited with what you can do with that continuous insulation because you've got your slabs coming in, the slabs are buried on the exterior wall or the steel, but there's thermal bridges that just can't be avoided in these buildings of this timeframe.

 

But we did the best we could. And on balance, with the insulation on the inside and the new building’s envelope, we were able to get a building that could easily comply with the energy code. So yeah, we had to insulate the existing buildings walls and that's how we dealt with that.

 

00;23;14;18 - 00;23;22;17

DP

You guys had to replace some of the existing brick. So talk a little bit about that and then tell us what kind of brick you used on the new addition.

 

00;23;22;20 - 00;24;41;25

JW

Sure. Yeah. The existing brick, we had to undo some sins of the past at lintels the repairs that were done previously. Not quite sure when they were done with maybe a little bit less sensitivity to matching the brick and the mortar. So that was some of the repair work that we did at the existing building. The existing building also has a base, a very formal base.

 

It's a very classical design to have that base. So we wanted to, that was another one of these affinity points that we wanted with the new building. So we created this base, which was a dark grounding brick that's a Glen-Gery product, it's a Black Hills velour. The velour is the finish on the brick. So that kind of established the base of the building.

 

Then above that, we did a much lighter, more contemporary brick, also a Glen-Gery product, White Plains velour. Again, the velour is the finish of the texture of the face of the brick, and we did similar coursing, the mortar is very different. The mortar in the White Plains is its own mortar. The existing buildings, mortar repairs were their own mortar, so they would match that building's texture and coloration.

 

But through a combination of the same brick size, the same coursing, and also picking up on that limestone detailing that's in the existing building we did kind of create this affinity between the two buildings. So they're definitely distinct from each other, but they're also kind of of a family.

 

00;24;42;01 - 00;24;48;23

DP

Yeah, it's a nice touch. It ties the two buildings together. So how long did this whole process take from beginning to end?

 

00;24;48;25 - 00;26;00;29

JW

That is a good question. So the ULURP is something that you don't normally undertake. The ULURP is a discretionary approval process, so that added about a year to the design time. So I would say it took about 18 months to design the building, and the construction of it was also really complicated. It took, I think, 30 months to build it, and that included demolition, it included the excavation, and a global pandemic.

 

So it was one of these projects where, you know, we had to figure out how to do this, how to work remotely, work with the contractor, with all these site safety considerations. So we were fortunate enough that in the city there was a program that allowed for affordable housing to proceed. So it was told to the Department of Buildings that this is an affordable housing project and they give you a special permit that you post on the construction barricade.

 

And that allowed us to proceed. Now, it doesn't mean that we could proceed business as usual. Before the pandemic, there were all sorts of hand-washing stations and protocols for staff to be, you know, separate. And we would show up on site, we'd have masks, we wouldn't walk between crowds of people. So the fact that it got done in two and a half years is kind of a real testament to the partnership between ICL, the contract and the design team.

 

00;26;01;05 - 00;26;21;21

DP

So you'd mentioned the unique construction detail with this steel column that you guys had to alter the foundation for. What about some of the masonry on the exterior? Were there any unique construction details that you guys had to come up with? For example, for the connector, how did you guys end up doing that? I mean, is it all pretty straightforward?

 

00;26;21;23 - 00;27;03;24

JW

Well, yeah, I guess straightforward is a real simplification of what's involved. But yeah, we had to figure out where the steel was going to go, where we were going to break that new steel versus the existing steel. There's got to be some tolerances for movement and construction tolerances. That bridge was really made through that recessed metal reveal that you see separating the two buildings.

 

So we made it easier on ourselves by doing it in that different material that allowed for a lot of tolerance. It could be pushed back 18 inches and if, you know, was 16 inches in one place and a little bit different on the other side, you couldn't really tell because it was a very different material. So I think we're smart about making our lives in the contractors' lives a little bit easier.

 

00;27;04;01 - 00;27;08;11

DP

And how does the new additions touch the building next to it?

 

00;27;08;11 - 00;27;12;07

JW

There is a seismic joint.

 

00;27;12;07 - 00;27;13;06

DP

Really? Is that pretty typical?

 

00;27;13;06 - 00;27;41;21

JW

It's pretty typical, yeah. And it's based upon the various heights of the building. For every 50 feet it's one inch. So I think we had a setback from the property line three inches because we were just over 100 feet. So for every 50 feet you got one inch. So if you're 110, you got three inches. So we had something called an MCO joint, which is just a squishy finished joint that you kind of stuffy in after everything else is up and constructed. And that allows for any sort of seismic movement in case there's an earthquake.

 

00;27;41;23 - 00;27;45;28

DP

So tell me a little bit about the Enterprise Green Communities Program.

 

00;27;46;00 - 00;31;03;17

JW

It is a program that any affordable housing project that is going to be using public funds needs to adhere to. It's a little bit like LEED, LEED is a very broad system. So Enterprise and LEED are broad. They talk about community connected communities, recycled materials, water usage, energy usage, healthy interior environments. So that system is really helpful and I think it helps there be a consistency through all of the affordable housing that's being built now that there is this level of sustainability that is not only about carbon, it's about water, it's about interior indoor air quality.

 

So that's a really important system. The Passive House system that I've touched on a little bit earlier takes one piece of that, the energy piece of it and really ramps it up. So Passive House is about investing in that building exterior. You have a high quality envelope with continuous insulation, continuous air barrier that allows for very little air to come in or out of the building.

 

And that continuity is also part of the windows. And the windows are usually high performance windows that are either triple glazed or just high performance glazing. And what that really allows the envelope of the building to do is to be almost like a winter jacket. I think a good analogy aside from the winter jacket analogy, is like a thermos, an insulated cup versus just the standard deli coffee cup.

 

Your deli coffee cup is going to lose the heat in the coffee pretty quickly. If you've got the thermos, it's going to retain that heat for a lot longer. So what that allows you to do in the building is retain interior internal heat gains. And the internal heat gains are lighting, appliances, people occupying the space. So those internal heat gains that you can gain passively and retain in the building allow you to really drive down those heating loads in the building.

 

So in a building built in New York City, similar to 50 Nevins on its scale and its size and its number of occupants, you can heat the apartment with a hand dryer, so you really drive down those heating loads. You've got to cool the building too. So that high performance envelope also helps keep that cooled air, that energy that's invested in the air, keep that inside the building.

 

It's not leaking outside the building. You're not getting hot, humid air bleeding into the building when you're exhausting the bathrooms and the kitchen. So Passive House is really taking the energy component of any affordable housing building and really ramping up the stakes and making it a much more high performance building. There's more to it than that. The mechanical systems need to be designed and balanced for that.

 

There's domestic hot water that needs to be taken into consideration, but it's an area of practice that we are really pushing for and advocating with our clients for not only just being democratic and equitable for the buildings and the environments that they're often located in, but there's also regulatory pressures that are coming down the pike. There's something called Local Law 97, which is going to fine buildings if they don't have certain energy performance, if they emit too many emissions, whether it's carbon or sulfur dioxide or whatever, there's metrics for buildings of certain types and their sizes. And if you are not meeting those standards, there's going to be penalties to pay.

 

00;31;03;19 - 00;31;04;26

DP

So that's coming down the pike.

 

00;31;04;26 - 00;31;42;01

JW

That's coming down the pike. I think 2025 is the first threshold or maybe it's 2026. But we're designing buildings now that are going to take a year to design, two years to build. So by the time they're operational, we're in Local Law 97. So we're advising clients to not put your heads in the sand on this. You know, a lot of people aren't doing this.

 

The intense heat that we've been feeling, the wildfires in Canada, the fires and migration, we're starting to see the stuff hit the fan. So our clients are reading the writing on the wall. Local Law 97. There is a Local Law 154 that's banning gas usage.

 

00;31;42;04 - 00;31;43;20

DP

Natural gas.

 

00;31;43;20 - 00;31;53;10

JW

Yeah, natural gas. And you've actually done something that I want to check you on. Yeah, sure. It's natural gas, but who told you it's natural gas? It's fossil gas. The idea of that, it's natural. Okay.

 

00;31;53;10 - 00;31;55;02

DP

I was distinguishing from propane.

 

00;31;55;06 - 00;32;17;11

JW

Okay, well, it's kind of all the same stuff. It's all carbon that goes into the atmosphere and affects our climate. So I don't mean to be a jerk about it. And I find myself kind of being programmed by certain, you know, sales pitches and how they want you to perceive these things. So, yes, there's a natural gas ban, however nice you want to say it. So there's all these regulatory pressures.

 

00;32;17;11 - 00;32;20;23

DP

When you say local law. So this is New York State, New York City?

 

00;32;20;26 - 00;33;06;12

JW

Local law is just New York City. There's state legislation that's also banned gas fired equipment. And California's doing a similar thing. So it's amazing how much the landscape is shifting under our feet. There's a building in New York City not too far from where we are right now that was designed six or seven years ago. And one of the really innovative, cutting edge technologies that they used was to use a gas turbine to produce all of their electricity.

 

There was a cogen plant, so on the top of the building on the 73rd floor, they've got a gas turbine. And I believe it's also producing domestic hot water for the building's use, which seems, you know, at the time innovative, were going to be more independent. But I can't imagine trying to propose that sort of strategy now. So it's really amazing how much the landscape is shifting under our feet.

 

00;33;06;14 - 00;33;12;19

DP

So you've been an architect for 30 years. If you could give your younger self some career advice, what would it be?

 

00;33;12;21 - 00;33;55;23

JW

Knowing what I know now, I wish I would have been more thoughtful about sustainability and how important that is, because I think the decisions that we're making now, we're only really going to see the benefits of that or the implications or the results of that down the road and when I think about how much carbon has been put into the atmosphere since, like I think 1992, I think 50% of the carbon that's in the atmosphere was produced I think since the nineties. So it's not climate change, global warming. It's often thought about as something that's occurred in over a century. And a lot of the legacy emissions were from the beginning of the industrial revolution, but it's really not the case. It's really in this compressed time frame that's in the last 30, 40 or 50 years.

 

00;33;55;25 - 00;34;02;22

DP

John, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where could people go to learn more about Dattner Architects in New York City and yourself?

 

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JW

It's really easy. We've got a website, Dattner.com, I think we have a good representation of our work there. You'll see that all of our work is basically in the city and we can ride the subway to get to our site. So it's a pleasure to have spoken to you today and glad to be able to share some of my experience.

 

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DP

Thank you very much and great to have you here