TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;13

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;16 - 00;00;27;11

Tom Loftus (TL)

So we really had to be mindful of availability of product and the budget. So this is what started driving us to start playing with different bonding patterns. If we stack the brick one way versus another way, if we do a running bond versus a stack bond versus a Flemish bond, how can we play around with our stacking patterns and try to make something unique?

 

00;00;27;13 - 00;02;46;23

DP

This is my guest, Tom Loftus. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we highlight Tom's 389 Weirfield Project in Brooklyn, New York. 389 Weirfield in Brooklyn is a 12 story 50,000 square foot rental project consisting of 66 residential units, a common roof deck, library and cafe. The building was constructed along with a second at 378 Weirfield just across the street.

 

The building features a very unique singular masonry facade we'll discuss today. The sole decorative facade is done in undulating rail like bricks, which is in a creative vertical design. The bricks are dark and called Ebonite Smooth. They protrude in patterns at equally spaced cadence as the facade climbs. The windows are set apart from the vertical masonry bands with frames of varying height, which capture the windows between the horizontal spans. The singular brick facade was a unique way of setting apart a building that might otherwise be much like any other.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Tom Loftus has a bachelor degree in architecture from New York Institute of Technology. He also has a certificate in business management from Cornell University and is a licensed architect in New York.

 

Tom's first exposure to working in the architectural field came from a job in wood frame construction. After a number of years working in Westchester County, he brings over 20 years of project management experience to outgoing architects. As studio director, he has extensive knowledge and experience in project management, schematic design, design, development, construction drawings, design quality and project construction.

 

He's also a leader in building and maintaining client relationships, managing teams’ workloads, plus client and consultant coordination. So welcome, Tom. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Aufgang Architects in Suffern New York. So where are you guys located in Suffern? What's the size of the firm? How long has it been around and what kind of work do you guys do?

 

00;02;47;01 - 00;03;37;20

TL

Great, first and foremost. Thanks a lot, Doug, for having me on the podcast today. I'm really excited to be here. So we're located here in downtown Suffern, right down the street from the train station pretty close to central Manhattan. So our firm is about 50 people right now. We primarily do residential work. I'd say about 90% of our work is in the residential field.

 

We do everything from low rise to high rise buildings, primarily in the five boroughs. But we also have projects in the tri state area and a few scattered around the country as well. A lot of those projects are mixed use with commercial on the first, second or few floors and then residential apartments above. The residential work that we do ranges in everything from luxury condos all the way to homeless shelters and really a range of everything in between.

 

00;03;37;22 - 00;03;39;28

DP

So how long has Aufgang Architects been around?

 

00;03;40;05 - 00;04;19;22

TL

Outgoing has been around. I think we're going about 50 years now. Ari is the third owner of the company, and when I started, I worked together with Ari and our former principal, Hugo, and they partnered for a while and he had also taken over the firm from someone else. So probably in the early seventies, if I have my history of the firm correct.

 

We started in Rockland County doing small scale residential rehab work and grew in time and in size with our clients and our work type from one partner to the next, and really have kept our foot in our roots in residential and then grown laterally in the industry.

 

00;04;19;25 - 00;04;27;22

DP

Tom, tell us a little bit about yourself. How long have you been practicing architecture and your role as studio director?

 

00;04;27;25 - 00;05;16;29

TL

Sure. It feels like forever. Honestly, every once in a while I wonder, am I still really doing this? But I've been in the architecture field now just a little over 20 years, and I started working in Westchester County. Small scale wood frame, residential. It was a natural stepping stone for me. After I got out of high school, I thought I want to be a framer.

 

And after getting really tired of carrying three quarter inch plywood up a ladder, I said, Nope, time to go back to school and study architecture. And from there I worked at a variety of firms in Manhattan, in Westchester County, doing a variety of different work. And when I found this firm, the scale work that we were doing, the residential work, it tied into something I loved with my single family housing experience.

 

It kind of stuck and I ended up staying here for quite a while.

 

00;05;17;01 - 00;05;23;25

DP

It's a long time practicing as an architect. I kind of say the same thing about or to myself about how long it's been.

 

00;05;23;27 - 00;06;23;12

TL

Sure, I've really grown in the company here. It's been a fantastic partnership with Ari. When I started, I came in really as an assistant project manager. A lot of my experience was not relative to the scale of the projects we were doing, although in other firms I was working in a bit of a leadership role running point on smaller scale projects, so it took a little time to learn the ropes, if you will, in the different construction types.

 

And I've moved up into the role of studio director now, so I work very closely with our senior management and the rest of our senior staff looking at our workload, our resource management, project proposals, client relationships and really stay involved with the team from the very start of the project until close out to handle the day to day operations of the office as a whole.

 

Ari, myself and our controller meet frequently to talk about some of the more boring business side of things and then the more fun happens working with the architects on the day to day and the projects.

 

00;06;23;15 - 00;06;33;19

DP

So let's dig in here and talk about this very interesting facade of yours. How did your office get the project, or is this a project that the office created?

 

00;06;33;21 - 00;07;57;02

TL

Yeah, this was actually an interesting project that came at a time when everything started shutting down right at the start of the COVID pandemic. And we had a really good recommendation from a long time client that we had worked with, and we had met a new client remotely who was involved on the construction side of things, and we hit it off.

 

We started talking and it was the first time ever that I met someone virtually and had meetings like this on screens, and we were trying to build a new professional working relationship. So it was very unique in the way that the project started. And again, we do a lot of our work really based on recommendations. We really pride ourselves in building good relationships with our client base, and that's really how the project got started.

 

They had this unique property in Bushwick and if you know the area in Brooklyn at all, it's a lot of small scale row housing, if you will, maybe 3 to 4 storeys and there really aren't too many open lots. And in this particular project it was unique. There was a large portion of the lot that had an easement that couldn't be built on it, and it provided a good amount of air rights which allowed us to follow the zoning path to do a much taller building than you usually would see in this neighborhood.

 

Most of the buildings were very close together, and that's really how it started and how the project grew and how we ended up with a 12 storey building in the middle of Bushwick.

 

00;07;57;05 - 00;08;04;19

DP

So did you guys know right away that you were going to be able to make a tall building there, or did it take a little bit of examination first?

 

00;08;04;21 - 00;08;48;13

TL

It took a little bit of examination. Usually what we do as architects is we really try to help guide our clients to bring their projects to fruition. This is the property I have. What can you build? How much can you build? There are two different zoning parts you can follow, primarily three different zoning parts in New York City that will help you establish the bulk, the height, the size of the building.

 

So we'll study that first and foremost with our clients and present them the different options. And based on the geometry of this lot, when we saw the potential to get a little height on this building, be separated from the other surrounding residential buildings, it gave them a nice opportunity to have a building with some great potential for views in an otherwise low height area.

 

00;08;48;15 - 00;08;53;12

DP

So what was the scope and the programmatic requirements for the project once you got rolling?

 

00;08;53;14 - 00;09;32;03

TL

Typically and specifically to this project, our scope was everything from working with the development team to help them flush out the parameters of their funding program. So when you work with different agencies in New York City and in the state and you're following certain guidelines to provide certain square footages and distribution of units, we work right at the very beginning with them to help them find the right mix and size of units, right with the development team.

 

From there, we work through design and construction administration all the way until the close of the project. So we really gave soup to nuts services here. Full scope on the building.

 

00;09;32;05 - 00;09;48;24

DP

So let's talk a little bit about the building design stylistically. So you guys designed quite a unique facade, while the other three facades, from what I can tell from the photos, are relatively subdued. Tell us about the main idea behind this.

 

00;09;48;26 - 00;11;17;22

TL

First and foremost, we love Brick. Brick as an architect, for us, it's really a timeless material and it's a durable material and it fits in really well to so many different urban fabrics in so many different places. In my opinion, what made 389 unique was the timing that this project was happening. It was happening at a time where the future was uncertain.

 

We didn't know what was going to come of this pandemic. We had to be incredibly mindful of the budget. Many times we like to create building facades that are two different materials having a nice dialog or different color bricks. So we really had to be mindful of availability of product and the economics, the budget, and really try to come up with something that would be unique but be something that the client could achieve.

 

So this is what started driving us to start playing with different bonding patterns if we stacked the brick one way versus another way, if we do a running bond versus a stack bond versus a Flemish bond, how can we play around with our stack in patterns and try to make something unique? So that was really what started pushing us in this direction of going with a single color brick and then really focusing on how to find a challenge enough for the mason that they don't hate us and say these are architects of the worst.

 

Have something be achievable for them. But that also will give a nice unique context to the neighborhood.

 

00;11;17;25 - 00;11;24;28

DP

Were there any aesthetic reviews of the building before you guys got rolling with the city?

 

00;11;24;28 - 00;11;49;21

TL

With the city for this particular project, there were no agencies on the city or state side that had any reason to opine on the design. We were not going for any variances. We didn't really have to go to the community board, although we did not need their aesthetic approvals. It is something that we're always mindful of working within the urban fabric and how it's going to lend itself to the context of the neighborhood is always an important consideration of ours.

 

00;11;49;23 - 00;12;01;09

DP

So let's back up just a little bit. So the building plan, are we talking rectangle, square, relatively straightforward. Then of course, there's parking on the site. You had said that there was a portion of the site that you could not build on.

 

00;12;01;11 - 00;13;07;01

TL

That's correct. So for this particular massing to make this building work, the footprint was rather small. It actually made a very efficient floor plate with a very tight core of stairs, elevator and corridor, and then apartments around all sides of that. So it really became a very compact, high efficiency floor plate with very little loss factor. And it was something that we were able to just work all the way up the building.

 

So there were quite a bit of revisions back and forth, variations that we had worked on to find the right mix and balance of that to fit within the envelope. The same thing then translated to the facade a bit earlier we were talking about what did the design iterations look like there, through the whole process of finding the right solution and the facade design that we felt was the right match for this building.

 

We did digital 3D models, plenty of sketches and even on site mockups working together with the Masons saying, We know you can do this, we believe in you, please don't kill us. And did plenty of mock ups there to really work it out.

 

00;13;07;03 - 00;13;11;25

DP

Was it a challenge finding a good mason, or did you guys have somebody lined up right off the bat?

 

00;13;11;27 - 00;14;04;09

TL

I think that's really one of the keys. You have to have really good subs. So whatever the type of work you're doing in this case, the Masons, you need to have a good working relationship with them. And often it's the architect working directly with the general contractor. But in these cases we invited the Masons into the architecture meetings, we invited them into the AOC meetings towards the end and said, Look, let's work through some of these details.

 

Let's talk through it. How is this going to work? It wasn't incredibly complex or challenging, but we wanted to make sure that the person who was directing their team to install the Brick really felt confident that they could achieve what we were looking for. We never wanted to come out on site and say, This is all wrong. That's not what we want to do.

 

And I really think engaging with those professionals early on is important to try to get the end result that you're looking for.

 

00;14;04;12 - 00;14;16;20

DP

Yeah, we try to bring in a contractor at schematic design. Once we wrap up schematic design, we have them price the project. This is in high and residential work that I do. So single family homes.

 

00;14;16;22 - 00;14;33;09

TL

Right? And in this case we didn't have a mason lined up. We didn't have a recommendation. The developer slash contractor, they were one and the same here. They had already had an existing relationship with this Mason and we started just working with them early on in the process.

 

00;14;33;11 - 00;14;54;17

DP

So could you do your best to describe the evolution of the design of that facade and then try to describe the facade? I'm going to encourage our listeners to go to the Glen-Gery site and take a look at some of these photographs because it's really striking. I've never seen anything like it. It's a great idea. The clients must have been thrilled when you presented the drawings.

 

00;14;54;19 - 00;17;33;18

TL

Thank you very much for that. We've seen a lot of example of brick facade that has quite a bit of movement in it, and these brick facades more often than not, are panelized prefab, and that's a way that you can achieve quite a bit of movement with brick using this idea of this undulation and this movement in the brick as an inspiration.

 

That's what triggered us to start thinking about how a brick pattern, the stacking pattern, really might help us achieve what we wanted to do here. So if our listeners are familiar with Brick parents, which I hope they are, we're in a brick podcast, we utilized a Flemish bond pattern and a running bond pattern. So the Flemish bond pattern has a standard brick with the long face.

 

The following brick is then rotated 90 degrees with the short face and the pattern is repeated. Taking this idea of combining a Flemish bond pattern with a running bond pattern, we now have these bricks that are half size, if you will, square proportion to create the movement and the undulation throughout the facade. We detailed a Flemish bond pattern with a large number of running bond, then a increasing increment of Flemish bond and a decreasing increment to running bond.

 

So we took the pattern and as you got closer to the center of the pattern we created, you had a higher frequency of Flemish bond. And as you moved away towards the end of the pattern that moved vertically up the building, it was stretched out with more running bond. So that's a lot of back and forth with different bond patterns.

 

Ultimately, by having that Flemish bond brick, we then protruded it out from the facade in the center of the pattern where the Flemish bond patterns are stacked very closely together. The bricks protruded the largest amount. And then as that pattern was separated and pulled apart from top to bottom, the brick became closer and closer to the facade.

 

So we basically created a formula that the mason can follow. For every increment, the brick would step out a half inch further, and this is what gave the facade that undulation, as you move up the bricks, steps out and back in by using this bonding pattern. It also created a really dynamic shadow which was something that we really loved.

 

When the sun hits the building the right way, you get a really fantastic shadow where you have that brick and it just really, in my opinion, created a beautiful cadence that worked through that pattern.

 

00;17;33;21 - 00;17;41;27

DP

So it really does remind one of Braille. So how far what's the furthest protrusion for one brick?

 

00;17;42;00 - 00;18;01;07

TL

I do like that description of Braille. You instantly have an image in your mind of these protruding points that they create the pattern. The furthest protrusion is about two and a half inches at the center of the pattern. And then as it works its way down in half inch increments, it goes back down to zero and the pattern becomes flush.

 

00;18;01;10 - 00;18;20;02

DP

So you guys said that you worked on this in 2D and in 3D. I would imagine if you did some sun studies, you got a better sense for how much shade and shadow was going to be produced by these protruding bricks? Did you do the project in BIM? Is it Revit? Because I saw 2D drawings of this?

 

00;18;20;04 - 00;18;42;25

TL

Yes. It isn't Revit. It is a BIM project. While we were in the design phase, we actually used a few different softwares SketchUp and Enscape and Revit along with AutoCAD, and we really did a series of 2D sketches, 2D drawings and 3D studies, partial facade studies. Just to get a sense of how this all might look.

 

00;18;42;28 - 00;18;49;26

DP

And how many iterations ultimately did you go through? I mean, big iterations, like is it two or three or ten or?

 

00;18;49;28 - 00;19;42;12

TL

Once we just came to the conclusion that we need to stick with a singular color brick here in the front, I'd say we probably had about ten different versions. It's a slim, tall building with very large windows, really trying to maintain a nice modulation of those windows in that spacing, but also then maintain a standardized brick dimension. So for a long time we were playing around with the inches of the bricks so that we were at a half size brick or full size brick.

 

Should we use a stack bond and emphasize the verticality of the building? How often should we introduce a horizontal element so that it's not looking like a stack of pancakes, for lack of a better expression? So really, we had a good amount of iterations here until we got to the point where we really like the running bond, Flemish bonds.

 

00;19;42;14 - 00;19;58;19

DP

I like the way you describe that. From what I remember looking at these photos, the windows are framed out differently. So you have a series of windows which have an individual frame, and then at one point in the building, that frame actually wraps a few stories of windows, right? So you break up the facade that way, too.

 

00;19;58;19 - 00;20;26;03

TL

Exactly. Playing with the verticality of the building, we did group a series of windows, two windows stacked vertically, three windows stacked vertically and created a frame around those windows. And this helped take that 12 story building and just give it a little bit of scale as it moved up the building. So these groups have two vertical windows that are now framed together.

 

Then also had the movement of the undulating brick happening between them.

 

00;20;26;05 - 00;20;28;28

DP

You guys really thought through it. It's a real beautiful facade.

 

00;20;29;04 - 00;20;29;29

TL

Thank you.

 

00;20;30;01 - 00;20;34;06

DP

So how big was the team that worked on the project? Just a few people?

 

00;20;34;08 - 00;21;17;08

TL

Every project is staffed with a dedicated associate director who are all registered architects, a project manager, and then the support staff. When we were in the design phase, we had the project manager working together with one of our designers. So we really had a team of to playing around with this and then bouncing the idea back off of the associate on the project.

 

Then once we really ramped it up into production, we would stack two or three people on the project. As you get closer to submission deadlines and trying to get into the Department of Buildings to get permits done, we would build the team up. Usually there was always at least two people on the project that were always there from day one.

 

They haven't left the project and they stayed on from beginning to end.

 

00;21;17;10 - 00;21;26;09

DP

So how long did it take to build the building? I would imagine it was pretty cool watching that facade go up. First couple stories. You must have been thinking, Wow, man, this is going to be something.

 

00;21;26;12 - 00;21;51;29

TL

You know, the construction team, they did a fantastic job. They had a really good crew out there. And around 24 months, the building went up and then all the fine details coming out of the pandemic. It was interesting. There were certain trades that just took longer because of materiality, distribution chain, supply chain, availability of product, which threw little curveballs here and there.

 

But all in all, the sequence and timing was fairly smooth.

 

00;21;52;01 - 00;22;01;13

DP

So it seems like I learned something new every project. Was there anything that you guys learned while you were out in the field or doing these drawings or dealing with the client?

 

00;22;01;16 - 00;22;48;06

TL

There certainly was. You know, I had spoken about the Mason earlier on, and that was certainly a good lesson. Building a good relationship with your Mason early in the project is really important and I joke about it. Sometimes they look at the architect's details and think, Are these guys crazy? We're not going to build this. There's going to be a better way to do it.

 

And I think that was really the big lesson we took here, establishing that good relationship and also giving the tradesmen the respect that they deserve. They're installing the work. They know some of the nuances of how this gets installed and taking that into consideration, finding that common ground so that you don't bring your ego into the conversation and giving them that professional respect and you're going to get it back.

 

That was definitely a good lesson here.

 

00;22;48;08 - 00;23;16;16

DP

That seems like a lesson I've learned over and over again throughout my career. When you're young, you go out there and you think you know everything and you've got an answer for everything, or you're going to fake your way through it, or however you choose to deal with it. But as you get older, you realize that these people that you're working with, many of them have an awful lot of experience, and it would be a good idea to sit and listen to them and actually ask them questions rather than tell them what to do.

 

00;23;16;18 - 00;23;38;10

TL

That's right. And I always find that working with our up and coming project managers and our younger staff, it's always those lessons that you try to instill in them. It helps them understand how to build those relationships because this industry is built on relationships and if we can do that, we're going to navigate successfully through any project.

 

00;23;38;13 - 00;23;58;03

DP

Well, you guys have been around a long time, 50 years. Goodness gracious. That's incredible. Congratulations, Tom. You've been an architect for over two decades. Based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for your younger self or maybe some young architects working their way up the ranks?

 

00;23;58;05 - 00;24;13;16

TL

Yes, don't worry. It's going to work out, if you love it, stick with it. It's a long road. And just when you think maybe you should change your major, you might still be out of college 20 years and asking yourself, Should I change my major? If you love it, stick with it. It's rewarding.

 

00;24;13;19 - 00;24;28;05

DP

That's really funny. I feel like I've changed my major all the time.

 

My goodness. So, Tom, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about Wolfgang Architects and yourself?

 

00;24;28;07 - 00;24;38;19

TL

They can go right to our web site at Aufgang.com and they can find all the information about us there. They can follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter and all the different platforms.

 

00;24;38;21 - 00;24;45;21

DP

Well, thank you very much, Tom. It's been great. And I encourage people to go to the site and take a look at this very interesting building. Thank you.

 

00;24;45;29 - 00;24;50;18

TL

Doug. I really appreciate it. It was great chatting with you here today. I had a great time.

 

00;24;50;21 - 00;25;18;12

DP

Awesome. Thank you.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;12

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;14 - 00;00;37;06

Simon Trumble (ST)

It was a building that was not fully confined. However, we put on ourselves the fact that we are in a neo Georgian campus. And how do we want to think about it? We've pushed the lines on that. But the handful of elements that come together from that in these neo Georgian buildings are always the white columns, the brick is used, it's on the floor, and then it turns up the walls and places and it becomes the auditorium itself and the campus and the buildings spin around it. The auditorium is the anchor from which everything works.

 

00;00;37;09 - 00;03;38;27

DP

This is my guest, Simon Trumbull. I'll share more about him shortly in this episode from the Design Vault, which highlights Simon's project, the Brendan Iribe Center for Computer Science and Engineering in College Park, Maryland. The Brendan Iribe Center for Computer Science and Engineering in College Park, Maryland, is designed for work in virtual and augmented reality computer vision, robotics and computing platforms.

 

The university describes the new building as a reimagined kinetic hub for the campus. The building is both inwardly and outwardly focused, connecting the university with a new innovation district and is easily visible from its prominent location. The dynamic building plan is comprised of two main components: a six story instructional and research space, and a 300 person auditorium joined by a connector.

 

The main feature of this building is a large glass facade characterized by an inventive curtain wall system that controls solar gain while creating the optical illusion of movement. Interestingly, the campus architecture happens to be deeply rooted in a classical neo Georgian architectural tradition. For this reason, Brick was used in a number of ways as common wall sections and knee walls, parametrically modeled wall patterns and as the main exterior feature of the Antonoff Auditorium.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Simon was educated in the United States, Mexico and Italy and holds a Bachelor of Design and Master of Architecture from the University of Florida. He's currently a design principal at HDR with a career spanning almost three decades.

 

His experience extends across an array of large scale technology, intricate projects that span the globe. Among the many buildings Simon has been involved with, he's been the lead project designer on jobs such as the Inova Center for Personalized Health Research Building in Falls Church, Virginia, the USACE’s Baltimore district East Campus Building Four in Fort Meade, Maryland. The USACE’s Baltimore District Defense Intelligence Agency Headquarter Annex Command and Control Facility in Fort Belvoir, Virginia.

 

And the project we'll discuss today, the Brendan Iribe Center in College Park, Maryland. At the core of his design philosophy lies the art of distilling complexity to its essentials. He's committed to capturing clear, simple and adventurous ideas, developing them into refined design solutions for technologically demanding building types. Simon is a registered architect, LEED accredited professional and a member of the AIAA.

 

So welcome Simon, it's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about HDR. Now I know it's a large office. Where is the office that you're located? What's the size of the firm? How long has it been around and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;38;29 - 00;05;21;22

ST

HDR has been around since 1917. We're a very old engineering backed company and it started out in Omaha. The office I'm in, we like to call it the Washington DC office, but really we're in Arlington, so pre-Civil War, we would have been DC. At that time, in 1917, the engineering based company Hennessy, H.H. Hennessy was the leader of the office and it started out as a water and electrical service to that area of the country, grew from there to add civil and then architecture services around the thirties and then really bloomed in the fifties to around the time 1700 or so employees. Today we’re in countries around the world.

 

We're about 200 plus offices and I think about 12 and a half thousand employees with still the largest aspect of it being the engineering company, transportation, aviation, full services architecture is about 15 to 20% of the company. And in general, because of this engineering background, because of this engineering focus, we stick mainly to very technical, sophisticated engineering, heavy buildings, and hence why you see some of the work that we have.

 

It's a particular focus. Health care isabout 45%, 43% of the work we do in general. And then science and technology picks up about 20%. And then from there it's a plethora of different types of work, again with an engineering bias to that particular work.

 

00;05;21;24 - 00;05;32;20

DP

And yet these are really beautiful buildings. I drive by the Penn Pavilion once a week down in the city. You guys design that, right, that big red curvilinear building?

 

00;05;32;22 - 00;05;35;10

ST

Yes, that goes way back. Actually.

 

00;05;35;10 - 00;05;36;03

DP

It's stunning.

 

00;05;36;08 - 00;06;15;05

ST

Yeah. The office has really made a push over the last 20 years to bring how we think about buildings, the idea of buildings to the forefront. Because when you start thinking about the engineering aspects of building, it's very straightforward. These are the issues, these are the facts. Here's how we develop it. But when you bring architecture, you bring a bit of poetry to it.

 

How do we want this to operate? How do we want this to provide for the future? How do we want people to work within it? Iribe’s a great example of that, how that comes together, both for the campus, for the facility, and then, you know, for the client itself.

 

00;06;15;12 - 00;06;32;16

DP

Yeah, it's a beautiful building. So to back up a second here. So I said you've been practicing as an architect for almost three decades, but 30 years we kind of laughed about that. Tell us how you ended up at HDR and what kind of experience do you have before that? And currently at HDR, if there was a before that.

 

00;06;32;18 - 00;08;09;14

ST

It's an interesting story. I'd like to call myself a retread because when I came out of school I joined a company called Cooper-Lecky and Cooper-Lecky is fairly famous for having worked with Mylan to do the Vietnam Memorial. Kent Cooper was Saarinen's project architect on the Dulles Airport. So he comes through that lineage of things and they ended up doing the other one that people might know is the Korean Memorial.

 

They were the project architects doing that, again, coming out of Vietnam. That company got bought out by another company called CUH2A. CUH2A today became the sort of S&T backbone to HDR. So there had been a purchase there in between that time. I spent about five or six years with Smith Group here in DC. So it's interesting because all of that ties together, at Smith Group I was mainly focused on workplace buildings downtown DC, renovation down to the National Cathedral. There was an 18 car underground bus parking terminal. Another thing. So again, almost every engineering background type building for that, it's a beautiful installation. If you go there today, you have no idea that there's about 18 busses parked below ground there and 550 cars or so parked there.

 

So, you know, I come out of things like that. The Constitution Center, which was the renovation of the largest office building in DC, again with Smith Group. And then I came back to CUH2A which became HDR and have been here ever since.

 

00;08;09;16 - 00;08;10;28

DP

You're clearly enjoying it.

 

00;08;11;00 - 00;08;13;06

ST

Yes, but apparently I'm getting old.

 

00;08;13;09 - 00;08;19;16

DP

You don't think so until you look in the mirror in the morning.

 

00;08;19;18 - 00;08;21;00

ST

Right. Exactly.

 

00;08;21;02 - 00;08;25;10

DP

So let's dig in here and talk about the project. How did your office get the project?

 

00;08;25;13 - 00;11;20;02

ST

Well, so this is even a stranger one. The head of design for HDR Brian Kowalchuk had been called to come to the university. We had done the physics building on the university. I was the lead designer on that one as well. And they had a donor or possible donor in Brendan Iribe, and they wanted to talk through ideas for what's possible.

 

So Brian met with Brendan on and off for about a year, doing designs and talking through projects and design ideas for how to do a project and to get Brendan excited and focused on helping the university. At the time, this is back in 2016, Brendan then decided to give the university a donation to build this university or build a school.

 

He gave them a $31 million donation and Michael Antonoff I don't remember the number, but I think it was around $5 or 6 million also donated and it was about the time that interest then passed away from a bicycle accident. So all of this kind of came together. Brendan had been invited back. He had just finished designing Oculus goggles and was fresh off of selling this to Facebook in 2014 for the small sum of $2 billion.

 

And this is 2014. So the university, of course, very happy to talk with him, invited him back. He, Andrew Reisse came back to the university and took a tour and realized that this was the same computer science facility that they had gone to when they were students years ago. No difference, no changes, no upgrades. And matter of fact, he ended up using a restroom that was broken that they tried to stop him from using, but he needed to use the restroom.

 

He just couldn't believe the state of the facilities. And here Silicon Valley is drowning in money and in need of high quality students. So he and Andrew Reisse looked at each other and said, Well, how much can it cost to build a school? We should do something about this. And he was thinking $2 million or so, $4 million, but ended up giving $31 million and talking others into it when this all came around, everybody was so excited to do this.

 

The teachers had gotten together and donated $1,000,000. I'd never heard of this before. The teachers got together and pulled money. Brendon's mom put in a million or so out of her own pocket. He talked other friends into giving a little bit here and there, and when the state saw this, the state was very, if somebody is putting up money, they'll back it.

 

So they came in and this basically turned the wheels and made it all happen. And then the university found a site and that was really what kicked us off. Brendan wanted to bring Silicon Valley to the east. And how do you do that?

 

00;11;20;05 - 00;11;41;17

DP

Well, it's pretty impressive. You know, my wife went to school there many years ago and that campus needed a lot of work. This whole neo Georgian thing stylistically, you know, there was a lot to be done there. And recently we've had some friends’ children who are going to school there. And they said the campus is spectacular. When I saw the images your building, I was blown away.

 

I mean, they're really doing some beautiful architecture there.

 

00;11;41;19 - 00;12;43;15

ST

The architecture around that campus has really taken leaps forward, not just our building, but some of the other buildings are coming around there. We're sort of in the tech and innovation part of campus. They've designed different zones and they still have their historic core that neo Georgian architecture, fundamentally that underpinnings of neo Georgian still there. And that's affected our building as well.

 

How we think about it, white columns, brick walls. But what we did was sort of a blended reality. We've pushed and pulled these pieces together and we've created an inside outside that most previous neo Georgian buildings don't really have. You go to classrooms and then, you know, dispel knowledge to each other. But you can turn and look and you go from seeing the blackboard, so to speak, to seeing the outside, this is the old traditional way of teaching, used to sit under a tree and have a discussion.

 

So we go back to those times, even though today we're in VR headsets and using technology at a different level.

 

00;12;43;17 - 00;12;50;01

DP

That's a great analogy. So let's back up a little bit. Tell us a little bit about the site. How did they find room on campus for this building?

 

00;12;50;08 - 00;12;59;21

ST

Well, the university decided on the site at the front of the campus, and when they did, they said what we want to do is design a gateway building.

 

00;12;59;21 - 00;13;01;28

DP

Is this down on Route one?

 

00;13;02;00 - 00;16;41;06

ST

This is right off of Route one near the old guard gate. So there's a guard gate that has been moved into position previously. If you see the two in scale, one absolutely just devours the other, One said a person scaled, the other is a six story building with, you know, 16 foot floor to floor. It's in a 25 foot first floor.

 

So we're talking about a very large space. But they wanted to create a gateway to the campus. That was the charge from the university. The charge from Brendan was how do we unlock the emotion of these students? And then the charge from, so to speak, ourselves is how do we create a knowledge hub, a place where everybody wants to come, they want to stay, but they want to exchange information.

 

You really learn better one on one that you do sitting with the teacher. It's when you start teaching each other that you really learn. And so we're bringing all these charges together. The campus had given us an old parking lot site, the parking lot for the previous computer science building. It's still there, by the way, but the parking lot for that building.

 

And when we got the site, started looking at it and started to do designs across US 1 is a new innovation hub that's being built, sort of partnerships with businesses. And then the other side from our site is the old campus, the heart of the campus. So we kind of created a building that essentially was a line that bent from the grid of the campus, looking back into the heart of the innovation campus, looking to the new innovation hubs that are coming.

 

And that has basically a view to them. We call those the reset zones. These are almost free spaces, but they're knowledge exchange spaces that happen vertically up the building. And those two sides. One of the other things we did was towards that entrance of campus. The building rides us up. It does that for two reasons. It's on columns.

 

It floats above the landscape, but it's really two reasons for it. Half of that land they gave us is a flood plain, couldn't build on it. So we have a fairly large program and all of a sudden we have half the site, literally half the site. We had to be a little bit inventive about it. And so the core of the building sits over that flood zone and, you know, serendipity to that, that space is also one of the sort of gathering hubs that people come to. Now. It's almost like being under the shade tree. They use it for events that students break out into that space and that breakout space flows into the building where there is also a little bit of a stadium seating zone that just provides these different types of environments where people can decide where they want to go, how they want to focus and use it for different types of events.

 

The whole ground floor is designed to be explored and used for different scale either university events, private events, and it's used all the time on that floor too. But facing the gatehouse. So facing the entrance of campus, so to speak, are the High Bay labs. And those High Bay labs are in basically open glass areas. They've got robotics.

 

They're doing, say, unmanned aircraft type things. They've got huge doors. They can bring in vehicles, whatever they might be doing in those, there's about four or five of them and they're 24 hours a day. So at night, there are lanterns and guideposts for the campus itself and for the students to both come and see what's going on. But a reminder, the University of Maryland is doing things and going places. It's alive.

 

00;16;41;09 - 00;16;58;05

DP

So I'm curious. We'll talk a little bit about the building stylistically. So it's clearly contemporary. Did you have any directives regarding style when you got started? Did they say, Hey, we definitely want a contemporary building with all of these neo Georgian pieces of architecture around.

 

00;16;58;08 - 00;18;24;22

ST

The campus Master Plan, which is one of the better master plans I have seen and I've worked with. I'm sure there's some others, but it's quite brilliant, you can go download it for yourself. It's a great example of how to do things. Has defined certain areas as historic and historic buildings that you need to stay within context with and other areas as moving beyond that historic into a we'll call it a new historicism, for lack of a better word, because this was the new gateway and because of where it stands, it was a building that was not fully confined.

 

However, we put on ourselves the fact that we are in a neo Georgian campus and how do we want to think about it? We've pushed the lines on that, but the handful of elements that come together from that in these neo Georgian buildings are always the white columns. We walk through our building, it's all white columns in there, and then places those white columns go from standing very simply straight up to being pulled and leaning as they face the future and the future campus growth.

 

And that's kind of how we thought about it. The brick is used. It's on the floor, and then it turns up the walls and places and it becomes the auditorium itself. And the auditorium spins. It's almost a rock in the river and the campus and the buildings spin around it. The landscape spins off of that rock. The auditorium is the anchor from which everything works.

 

00;18;24;25 - 00;18;45;04

DP

And we'll talk about that in just a second. So I'm curious about the project restrictions. So you guys clearly had a flood zone issue. What were the zoning requirements? You talked a little bit about historical requirements and then the university versus the client. How did you guys work within all that and how long did it take to kind of meet all of those directives before you were building?

 

00;18;45;06 - 00;20;14;02

ST

So this is about a one year design process. So if we say we spend about a year in discussions to think about the building to really work through developing a program that made sense for both the building and the campus, and then to then develop and work with the site, because once we found out actually that it was half the site was gone, there was a lot of discussion of other sites.

 

And so we actually did some test fits and some design work for sites across the street, for sites in the green space that's there, argued heavily that we should not be touching that site, that green space should be seen as sacred to the campus. Everything should support it and surround it. And we came back to our site and had to think inventively about how to deal with this floodplain.

 

And I think once we started to anchor onto that, the two computer science buildings really working around a courtyard again, it's a courtyard that's blended into our building and it started to make a lot of sense. There were other issues: the power needs for the building, the water control, for the building. So there's a lot of other things that happen.

 

Parking areas got cut off, so circulation and access needed to be developed. But we went through all of these different challenges in isolation with the goal of creating the building where it is as a gateway and the building where it is in relationship to the other campus computer science buildings.

 

00;20;14;04 - 00;20;30;02

DP

So the building plan is really unique. And when I was reading about this building, it mentioned parametric digital modeling. So you clearly use computer modeling for the form of this building and plan. And then ultimately for at least one of the facades on the interior, one of the walls and the interior.

 

00;20;30;04 - 00;21;33;28

ST

We use it in a couple of ways. The brick itself is actually laid out using parametric tools. I'll explain that a little bit more. The brick on the Antonoff Auditorium, the plan arrangement, it's 22 different curves to make that elliptical shape for the auditorium. The auditorium shape comes out of some of the acoustic design for the room. So it's a visual classroom more than it is a traditional auditorium.

 

So there are huge screens up there. So the visual access, as well as the stadium kind of seating for that used a little bit. And I say just a little. The majority of that was used for the wall panels to design the wall panels that are inside, and those take cues, The University of Maryland's mascot is the Terrapin turtle.

 

And so the diamonds on the shape of the back of that turtle were used as a kind of kickoff cue for how we did the wall panels inside. That is a sort of Chevron shape that cascades curves and wraps around that auditorium on the inside.

 

00;21;34;04 - 00;21;45;18

DP

Wow. That's a really neat idea. So how does a contractor lay out a building plan with all of those ellipses? How does that work?

 

00;21;45;20 - 00;22;40;13

ST

Really interestingly, there was a lot of discussion early on that we would go from Rhino to construction straight forward. So there are bent and curved steel tubes. There was a lot of discussion with the contractor that they would literally do almost a CAD cam type of situation just using the electronic design drawings to go and construct the building.

 

However, they did more of a hybrid with that. So we have curved steel studs backing up that brick and those curved steel studs are designed straight from the computer, so then they are shaped and placed, a more regularized steel frame, although it has some curvatures as well, also coming straight from the computer. And so those are brought together in order to then layout the auditorium and then to provide backup for the brick and then to work from there.

 

00;22;40;16 - 00;22;43;19

DP

Wow, what a great way to do it. The only way to do it.

 

00;22;43;26 - 00;24;05;20

ST

It's doable otherwise. But the reality is the time to do it today is not the same. And you would shy away from doing certain things because it'll take too long. We have 22 different curves. You might break that down to five or four and you have two different corners and work from there with the gentler bend. It doesn't make sense, but when you see it in plan, the auditorium itself warps in order to allow the courtyards to re match up from the old computer science building to the new computer science, and then to have a staircase that wraps up to a second floor terrace from which you can access the second floor of the main building.

But you also have this garden space. Again, we talk a little bit about nature and the studies looking at the screen and then being able to go outside. In nature, we have three gardens, we have the great gardens, we have the rooftop on the second floor garden, and then we actually have another garden on the very rooftop called the Reisse Park.

 

00;23;44;14 -

ST

And that was a gift, so to speak, from Brendan Iribe and Andrew Reisse to their buddy who had passed away. And it's got a little gallery up there as well as a garden space, then gives to the campus now, one of the greatest views that they could possibly have, and that gets used all the time for donor meetings, special guests, what have you.

 

00;24;05;22 - 00;24;09;29

DP

So what was the CAD program that you guys used? Was it Revit?

 

00;24;10;02 - 00;25;15;12

ST

Our backbone for everything is Revit. On the design side, our backbone has become Rhino and then grasshopper scripting in there to do some of the algorithmic work that we have. So just getting back to the curvature of the brick, because we have a curve in plan, but we also have a curve in section, that brick is skinnier or together it's closer together at the top than it is in the middle.

 

It's a belly in the middle and so the layout, the curves, what we wanted to do is to not have a bunch of cut brick. And of course we have to have every 30 feet or so an expansion for the brick. And so the expansion is laid up, tied together with the curves, but tied together with the brick module so that the brick module is defined such that we have a half brick or a whole brick throughout those curvatures along the section.

 

So that's where using grasshopper scripting a little algorithmic work helps to do something that I don't think we could normally do without a tremendous amount of planning work.

 

00;25;15;14 - 00;25;27;11

DP

Yeah, I would imagine the coordination on the job was really something else. So how many people were on the team and you were clearly leading it? Were there a number of PMs or 1 PM or how did it work?

 

00;25;27;13 - 00;26;59;06

ST

There was a PM and an Assistant PM. We talked for a while about separating the main building from the auditorium itself. The auditorium was almost a project on its own, I think that got debated about above my pay grade and rejected. I still think it might have been the right way to go with about five designers, I would say working on the building, both interior exterior and the auditorium.

 

We have some specialty spaces within the building. We have about four project architects and three interior designers working on it. So what would we end up with there? 12 or 15 people or so working on the project fairly consistently and then pulling in some folks to help with a couple of gurus and scripting algorithmic design that really help.

 

And you know, we have another layer in that brick facade, which is a sort of design element playing up, really showing algorithmic design work in there. It's almost like as if somebody break the bricks and they pull and they fall back into the wall. They almost look like they're falling out, wind blown and in movement. This is in the auditorium and it's a little design feature, really showing off algorithmic design.

 

You really wouldn't notice the fact that the curvatures had to be figured out that way or the wood paneling had to be figured out that way. Doesn't show that this was a way of really showing and playing with the tool, but using regular brick.

 

00;26;59;08 - 00;27;01;11

DP

So none of the bricks were custom.

 

00;27;01;13 - 00;27;03;22

ST

None of the bricks are custom.

 

00;27;04;00 - 00;27;06;26

DP

Unbelievable. And how many different Glen-Gery bricks did you guys use?

 

00;27;06;29 - 00;27;59;24

ST

The original is a mix of three different bricks, but it's basically a neo Georgian mix and it's the campus mix that they've had on that campus. The brick was a big debate because when we started to think about this sort of rock in the landscape, we played around with a lot of different materials and we were looking at metal, we were looking at stone, we're looking at precast.

 

There was other ways to think about it. We started to come back to a precast brick and we came back to regular brick masonry construction done the original way. We have some brick lintels up there that are about 3 to 4 feet big. Those were, if you want, really custom detailing to pull that off. But in general, it's the Georgian mix for the campus and it made sense to anchor the campus in its history, so to speak.

 

00;27;59;26 - 00;28;07;20

DP

Excellent. So did you guys learn anything interesting or new? Was there something that came up for you that was like, wow, this is something I've never dealt with before?

 

00;28;07;22 - 00;29;11;25

ST

The curve on the Brick was a lot of debate. When we worked on this early. We looked at the egg sitting in the landscape and we were thinking of that egg. The curvature is both in the bottom as well as the top. And we spoke with a lot of brick experts on doing I'll call it the counter curve, the bottom half of that curve.

 

And in that discussion, we would have to use seismic anchors to really hold the back. And there was a lot of discussion about whether we really have to invite quibbling into this or if we could follow the curvature of the bell. At the end of the day, I think we chickened out just a little bit. We took it, I'll call it from the belly line straight down and from the belly line above as the curve.

 

Our thought was within the auditorium. We could light that bottom space, so we'd put a curved light at the base and really have that belly kind of light up. And so the egg would sort of glow from the base. We do have that at the top as well. It solved a lot of other little issues that you say. So it took the detailing down a notch.

 

00;29;11;27 - 00;29;17;05

DP

I'm sure. As you're talking about all this masonry, Do you guys ever have any challenges finding the right mason?

 

00;29;17;05 - 00;30;10;16

ST

I would say yes. What's happening today? I'll call it The Art of Work. And this is maybe a product of us as architects, us as a building system. We want less craftsmen and more builders, I’ll use the word we. The old days of craft is really moved to the factory more now than it is in the field.

 

We don't allow that in the field. We don't have control of it in the field. We're not sure about it in the field. And so I think finding brick masons who can do this in the field is a really difficult job. That's what scares us off from doing it more than anything else. And that's what drives the cost up a little bit more than anything else.

 

At the end of the day, it's a simple job. It's a job that requires precision. The precision part is what's difficult, not that the job is difficult.

 

00;30;10;19 - 00;30;32;13

DP

Very interesting. Yeah, I ask that of everyone. I think it's probably 75 / 25%. In my experience, it's really challenging to find a great mason, somebody that can do a good job. They don't need a whole lot of hand-holding. We put together some tests in the field and then we get rolling. It's not always easy. So I understand.

 

00;30;32;15 - 00;30;41;24

ST

Yeah. I think today that the notion of craft, those that do it are very, very special. Those that are carrying it on are in demand.

 

00;30;41;26 - 00;30;44;29

DP

Right? So you get the right mason, you got to wait for them and you got to pay for them.

 

00;30;45;06 - 00;31;31;14

ST

You have to wait for them and you have to pay for them. We tend to do it in smaller places than the whole building or the larger buildings, but I think that's the holdup in a sense. They want to dom they the masons, the mason company, want to do very straightforward buildings. They get in there, knock it out, and they go, But it's not Well, it touches us poetically, so to speak.

 

It's not what moves people. You know, at the end of the day, when we talk about sustainability, the greatest sustainable work is the work that's loved because people take care of it. The stuff that we toss away is because it's manufactured. It's simple, there's no caring, no love to it. And so we create that garbage by what we do, and that's something we should be very particular about. Think hard about.

 

00;31;31;17 - 00;31;55;04

DP

What I was just about to ask you for some wisdom, but it was right there. Well, the things that are done really well are taken care of. I love that. That is so beautiful. So you've been an architect for a little while. Based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for your younger self or even young architects just getting started in the business?

 

00;31;55;07 - 00;32;50;18

ST

Oh good question. When I started out, I wanted to be a car designer and I went to design school. And the design school I went to taught with principles of architecture. And so I fell in love with that aspect of it. I think today a lot of young people, there has to be a bit of a labor of love.

 

And I think what happens today a little bit is we think we have a degree and we think we've learned it and we haven't. You've just opened the door to possibilities. And so you need to be a consistent learner and go after it. You need some sort of love or some sort of passion to do that. And I think you need to find that and to find that growth.

 

You said, I've been in this business for 30 years. I have 60 or 70 more years of learning that I need to do. I know that there's so much more to learn and I’ll keep pushing.

 

00;32;50;20 - 00;33;00;07

DP

Yeah, that humility is really important in any business, but in this specifically, we have to be really good at a lot of things to be a good architect.

 

00;33;00;11 - 00;33;00;26

ST

100%, yeah.

 

00;33;00;28 - 00;33;08;11

DP

So Simon, it's been great to speak with you today. Thank you so much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about HDR and yourself?

 

00;33;08;14 - 00;33;33;25

ST

Well, I would suggest HDR Architecture. You can look up the Arlington studio if you'd like, but better yet, I think just look at the work that's done. There is a plethora of work that the company does, so HDRArchitecture.com would be where I suggest everybody to go can always type in my name Simon Trumble and you'll run into me so happy to talk with you.

 

00;33;33;27 - 00;33;37;12

DP

Your buildings. The HDR work is really stunning.

 

00;33;37;19 - 00;33;59;18

ST

I thank you very much. I think it's a big push that HDR has been doing. We're focused on improving what we do. We come at it as the HDR group. It's not so much about me or somebody else. We come here to serve our clients and to do something a little bit more than what they had thought possible.

 

00;33;59;20 - 00;34;02;12

DP

Well, thank you very much Simon. This has been great.

 

00;34;02;14 - 00;34;07;11

ST

Thank you, Doug. Appreciate it.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;14

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;17 - 00;00;30;22

Jeremy Iannucci (JI)

We like to think that the entire project comes from the community around it. We looked at a series of precedents in the Greenpoint neighborhood, historically in Greenpoint, specifically on the waterfront, to inspire the way that we detail these facades. We have a collection of different brick styles that help to break up the massing of the building, different articulations, as well as material breaks with the two precast towers.

 

00;00;30;25 - 00;03;22;21

DP

This is my guest, Jeremy Iannucci. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from The Design Vault, we highlight Marvel’s Project 1 Java in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. 1 Java is a mixed use residential series of buildings located in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. The project responds to the New York City housing market and owners' needs addressing sustainability, constructability, risk mitigation, tax incentives and marketability.

 

The Development Investment Strategy required a net zero ready design and maximization of floor area. The project includes the largest geothermal array in New York State. The building will participate in the 421A affordable New York and inclusionary housing program, which provides up to 261 affordable housing units out of a total of 871. The new architecture consists of two towers, of prefabricated concrete sheet panels and three lower buildings varying from 6 to 10 storeys with brick masonry facades.

 

All five buildings rise from Greenpoint in a U-shape plan to maximize light views and open space. Terraces on the east and west. Facades of the towers modulate the elevation while creating private terraces for units and amenity spaces. Retail, food and beverage and live workspaces are consolidated along West and India streets. Townhomes share setback stoops, and a small secondary convenience lobby for the low rise along Java Street.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Jeremy Iannucci is a registered architect at Marvel in New York City. He has a Bachelor of Architecture from City College's Spitzer School of Architecture. His portfolio encompasses a number of challenging endeavors at Marvel, including a mixed use project located in Brooklyn's Waterfront, which we will discuss today. Jeremy enjoys taking part in international design competitions, one of which was recently shortlisted in a competition to design a children's hospice center, and another was awarded an honorary mention in which he designed a house relying exclusively on daylighting for organizing spaces and form making.

 

Jeremy also serves as a design critic at the City College of New York and Pratt Institute. So welcome, Jeremy. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Marvel in New York City. So where in the city are you located? What's the size of the firm? How long has it been around and what type of work do you guys do?

 

00;03;22;23 - 00;03;52;02

JI

Thank you so much for having me on. We are a New York firm. We also have offices in Puerto Rico, Richmond, Virginia, more recently, Barcelona. We're currently located in New York, in Tribeca, and around 200 people at this point. As far as projects that we take on, we like to say design everywhere for everyone. We don't try to limit ourselves to typology.

 

We take whatever comes at us. We measure everything against the values of the firm and we really just enjoy design.

 

00;03;52;05 - 00;03;58;21

DP

So tell us a little bit about yourself. How long have you been working as an architect and what's your role in the office?

 

00;03;58;23 - 00;04;08;27

JI

So in the office I really work through all stages of the project, through design, working on developing proposals, project delivery and currently in construction to administration.

 

00;04;08;29 - 00;04;13;06

DP

So this is a really beautiful project and it's extraordinarily large.

 

00;04;13;12 - 00;04;14;13

JI

Yes, it is.

 

00;04;14;15 - 00;04;17;06

DP

So how did your office get the project?

 

00;04;17;08 - 00;04;33;02

JI

So we were invited to participate in the RFP back in fall of 2020. So there was a few other notable firms in the competition. We were lucky enough to be awarded the project, and we've been working hand in hand with Lendlease in bringing it to fruition ever since.

 

00;04;33;05 - 00;04;37;27

DP

Did you know the clients before you entered the competition?

 

00;04;37;29 - 00;04;47;23

JI

We had some previous relations with the clients as a contractor, but they've recently started opening a development wing in the United States. This is our first project, working with them in that capacity.

 

00;04;47;27 - 00;04;53;19

DP

So this site is really large. Could you give us a little history of the location?

 

00;04;53;21 - 00;05;23;07

JI

The site is 200 feet in the north south and then between West Street and the East River. Around 600 feet with 40 feet reserved for a waterfront esplanade. We actually pulled back even a little bit further from that. And it's located right on the waterfront in Greenpoint. There was recently a rezoning that allowed for a whole redesign of the waterfront, and our project is one of the earlier projects in that redevelopment.

 

00;05;23;09 - 00;05;29;05

DP

So could you give us an idea of what the scope of the project is and the programmatic requirements?

 

00;05;29;07 - 00;05;49;14

JI

So it's a residential project, around 834 units, encompassing a total of around 800,000 square feet. This also comes with a series of amenity spaces, a series of retail spaces, as well as that waterfront park, and also a collection of rooftop amenities and green space.

 

00;05;49;17 - 00;05;56;11

DP

So let's talk about the building design stylistically. Were you guys borrowing from anything locally?

 

00;05;56;14 - 00;06;21;16

JI

We like to think that the entire project comes from the community around it. We looked at a series of precedents in the Greenpoint neighborhood, historically in Greenpoint, specifically on the waterfront, to inspire the way that we detail these facades. We have a collection of different brick styles that help to break up the massing of the building, different articulations, as well as material breaks with the two precast towers.

 

00;06;21;18 - 00;06;26;20

DP

So what was on the site before you guys ended up building the new architecture?

 

00;06;26;23 - 00;06;51;02

JI

Previously, there was a two story warehouse on the site and it really was kind of a beautiful space in its own right before we got the chance to tour around, before it was demolished. And I think walking around really inspired us just with these qualities of light and materials and things that were really native to the waterfront before all of this redevelopment.

 

00;06;51;05 - 00;07;00;18

DP

And the project, as I said, very large. Could you tell me a little bit about the zoning requirements and any challenges you guys had in terms of planning?

 

00;07;00;21 - 00;08;03;15

JI

So the project is as of right, it follows the zoning guidelines, the lot itself is actually split up into two different zones. So towards the inland it's mostly low rise. We had a height cap of 65 feet with portions that were allowable to go up to 100. And then towards the waterfront, the zoning actually got a little more complicated where there were a few different conditions that you could meet.

 

It opened up these different paths for how the building could be formed. One path was a one tower scheme, which would bring you up to 360 feet. And then the other was actually a two tower scheme where if one tower made it to 200 feet, the other would be allowed up to 400 feet. We took advantage of that in order to move more of the mass to the waterfront.

 

It helped gradually declined the building back into the fabric of the community and it provided more waterfront views overall, just a better experience and connection of the building, both to the water and to the community.

 

00;08;03;17 - 00;08;06;02

DP

So were there any floodplain restrictions?

 

00;08;06;05 - 00;08;49;21

JI

Yes. The floodplain has actually set one foot above the highest point of the site, which is the most inland. And then the site gradually slopes down another 6 to 7 feet towards the water. So much of the initial design strategy of the project was finding ways to transition from the ground to above that floodplain elevation. And we accomplished this a number of ways.

 

We actually set the building back the distance from the lot line as we get closer to the water, and this allows us to use landscaping as a way to gradually transition back up to that flood elevation, as well as moving all of our program spaces above and then moving more utilitarian spaces such as bike rooms down below the flood elevation.

 

00;08;49;24 - 00;09;12;26

DP

So I'm thinking about our listeners, how to describe the site because we have a series of buildings here. Is there a simple way for you to explain the building plans on the site? So first we describe the shape of the site and plan, and then if you could give us an idea about how those buildings are organized on the site.

 

00;09;12;29 - 00;09;40;18

JI

So the site's essentially just a rectangle. It's the size of a full city block and on three sides, on the north, the east and the south, we have streets and then the west side is the waterfront. It's the East River. So the way that we've organized the buildings around the site is in this U-shape, where they start up in the northwest corner, move around down West Street and then below, creating a view that opens up towards the water.

 

00;09;40;20 - 00;09;43;19

DP

So it's really all about the views, which it should be.

 

00;09;43;21 - 00;09;58;19

JI

Yes, it's something that it needs to be on the waterfront as well as it is about the views back into the neighborhood. We try to open up the view corridors from the building and leave as much view towards the water and towards the horizon from the rest of Greenpoint as we can.

 

00;09;58;22 - 00;10;08;12

DP

So tell us a little bit about the material choices. You've got a series of different materials and colors there. What were the decisions behind that?

 

00;10;08;15 - 00;11;00;05

JI

The building massing itself is broken up into five unique buildings and out of those we have two towers that are precast, and those are the buildings on the waterfront and then inland. There are three different buildings that range from ten stories to six stories. And those three buildings are brick. And that we really wanted to draw back from a lot of our inspirations in the Greenpoint community.

 

There's no shortage of brick precedents there. There's beautiful buildings such as the Astral, which is this Queen Ann red brick Terracotta building. There's St Anthony's Church, which is red brick and limestone trim. It's really beautiful, striking building. We looked towards kind of the history of the waterfront, those manufacturing, industrial buildings, and used that precedent to define these brick colors, these three different brick buildings.

 

00;11;00;08 - 00;11;28;28

DP

So interestingly, the facades. So we've got the shorter, or we've got the less tall architecture, which are brick buildings, and the facades are a series of what I'll call punctures with spandrel, it looks like spandrel brick in between each one of these vertically in between each one of the window openings, correct? Yes. So how many studies did you guys end up doing to decide what these facades looked like?

 

00;11;29;00 - 00;12;07;13

JI

Everything kind of melded together at some point. It's hard to break it down into a number because it was just this completely iterative process where we'd look at something, we'd make a model, we draw it, we'd look at it again, we'd make another model, we draw it. And this evolved from the concept schematic designs all the way through to the construction document development.

 

This idea of the different brick details that actually came from wanting to streamline the project. So we used the same details on each of the brick buildings, but we remixed them in each one. We use them in a different order to create a different identity for each of these.

 

00;12;07;20 - 00;12;25;01

DP

I think what's really interesting about these facades too, so you separate the facade these into squares or rectangles, and then they have this very, well, it looks subtle in elevation from far away, but it's actually a very large construction joint in between each one of these square rectangular panels, correct?

 

00;12;25;03 - 00;12;40;03

JI

Yes. We use that construction joint and we overemphasize it. We use this double soldier coursing reveal as a way to further break up the massing and kind of imply this subdivisions within the buildings.

 

00;12;40;06 - 00;12;43;17

DP

And how deep is that? Is that one brick thickness?

 

00;12;43;22 - 00;12;44;20

JI

It's two inches.

 

00;12;44;20 - 00;12;55;11

DP

Two inches. It's nice because when you look at the facade, I mean, it looks quite homogenous. But if you look at it a little bit more deeply, it's separated in these squares and rectangles. Very pretty.

 

00;12;55;16 - 00;13;14;27

JI

Yeah, that's the effect that we really want to go for in terms of how this fits into the fabric of Greenpoint. We like the idea of there being this large scale massing that breaks down and continues to break down the closer you get and it relates to more your scale relative to the way that you're viewing it.

 

00;13;15;00 - 00;13;22;07

DP

It really does scale the architecture nicely. So how about the building review with the city? Was that time consuming?

 

00;13;22;09 - 00;13;34;17

JI

Not at all. As I said, we were as of right building. So working through the construction documents, we were also working through permitting at the same time. It was a very easy flow from one stage to the next.

 

00;13;34;19 - 00;13;37;18

DP

Now, did you guys work in 2D and in 3D?

 

00;13;37;26 - 00;13;46;28

JI

Yes. 2D, 3D, physical models, sketches. Things were being passed around the office for a year and a half related to this.

 

00;13;47;01 - 00;13;51;00

DP

Do you work in Revit or AutoCAD or ArchiCAD?

 

00;13;51;02 - 00;13;58;26

JI

We're primarily a Revit office. We use Revit for our project delivery. We also do a bit of work in AutoCAD and in Rhino.

 

00;13;59;02 - 00;14;03;24

DP

So when you did presentation with the clients, did you show them three dimensional images and models?

 

00;14;04;01 - 00;14;31;01

JI

Yes, there is a lot of modeling. We actually very early on in the project, we built this eight foot long model of the Greenpoint waterfront, and we were working through just several dozens of iterations of the massing, the two towers, a one tower option, and we were all just spread out around the table, around this model, flipping through the different massings and trying to figure out what worked best with what else we were seeing on the waterfront.

 

00;14;31;04 - 00;14;33;00

DP

I bet the client really enjoyed that.

 

00;14;33;00 - 00;14;36;26

JI

It was a blast. Every office meeting was always a mini party.

 

00;14;36;28 - 00;14;57;08

DP

Yeah, clients love models. I mean, they love 3D images. I'm sure when you showed them these three dimensional images, particularly the towers, which are really quite beautiful, the way the facades step back and move forward. And they're just, the architecture is very interesting. So I'm sure they really enjoyed it, especially when they saw the first renderings.

 

00;14;57;10 - 00;15;12;11

JI

Yeah, again, it was a lot of fun and all these models were tactile and interactive, so it gave us a chance to move some of these blocks and figure out the correct portion, the correct distance that we'd want things to overhang to shift and slide past each other.

 

00;15;12;14 - 00;15;17;06

DP

So how many people worked on the project? How many people were involved in the office on the team?

 

00;15;17;11 - 00;15;44;07

JI

It fluctuated throughout phase. I think at the height of it we had around 12 people total, and that's assembling the full construction package, Through concept the team was a bit smaller, we maybe 4 to 6 and this is also spread out between a few of the different locations of our offices. So we had a team in our San Juan, Puerto Rico office and a team at our New York office, both working hand in hand on this.

 

00;15;44;09 - 00;16;06;15

DP

You know, as an aside, what's really pretty, the red brick that you guys use there, there are a lot of lighter bricks in that facade. And so it makes it look almost pink in color. But you get up close to it and you can see a lot of variations in these colors, in the red colored brick, a lot of like I'll call it value, but it's light and dark red brick.

 

00;16;06;18 - 00;17;10;16

JI

For that facade we're using a blended brick and we wanted that to echo some of the red brick buildings that you already see on West Street on the waterfront. That was kind of our launching point for coming up with this brick palette. We knew that there was going to be a red brick building. We knew that it was going to be relative to those warehouses and then the other two bricks were kind of an offshoot, based on how we wanted to frame this story of the building as you move around the site.

 

So to the north, there's a lighter brick. It's something that we see as a little more modern. We try to keep the tones of the brick and mortar and the sills and other materials a little more homogenous and then on the flip side of that, on the southern street of the building Java Street, we wanted to use something with a bit more variation.

 

We wanted a higher contrast between the grout and the brick, a higher variability within the bricks. And that's something that we saw as a little more nostalgic to some of those worker housings and the smaller buildings that you begin to see as you move more inland.

 

00;17;10;18 - 00;17;16;27

DP

Now the colors work very nicely together. So where are you guys in the construction phase on this? Forgive me for not knowing.

 

00;17;16;29 - 00;17;33;05

JI

Where currently pouring the concrete structure. We're up to the sixth floor now, I believe. We have gotten all of the brick pallets finalized. We've gotten all the precast facades cast. It's really kind of a game of assembly at this point.

 

00;17;33;07 - 00;17;41;28

DP

So, Jeremy, you're a young architect. I'm sure you're learning a lot. As you go along here, anything memorable so far?

 

00;17;42;01 - 00;18;01;06

JI

It's so hard to pick one thing. This entire project has just been an incredible learning experience. Admittedly, early in my career, there's so many different conditions, so much to consider with a project of this size that I really feel like I got a good breadth of exposure to so many facets of the industry now.

 

00;18;01;06 - 00;18;03;18

DP

Do you get to be out in the field a lot?

 

00;18;03;21 - 00;18;27;22

JI

Yes. Every week we have our owner and constructor meetings. We have bank walks on the side and really get to see the progress and it's moving so quickly, month by month. And also I live not too far from the site, so every week I try to make it out there and just see what's going on, see what's changed, and it's kind of humbling just seeing something come to life.

 

00;18;27;25 - 00;18;46;27

DP

I would imagine something this large, I've never worked on a project that's larger than a residential home. I mean, I've worked on schools early on, but working on a job that's this big has got to be humbling and profound and extraordinarily interesting all at the same time.

 

00;18;46;29 - 00;19;07;27

JI

Yeah, it's been challenging, but I think throughout all of it I've been extremely lucky just having in the support of a firm like Marvel as well as just an incredibly talented team of consultants, of engineers and clients who have really just been supportive and on board and actively participating in every step of the design.

 

00;19;08;00 - 00;19;12;29

DP

So I'd like to ask most of our guests, did you guys have any challenges finding a mason?

 

00;19;13;02 - 00;19;27;21

JI

No, actually, the mason that we've gone with bundling, we've worked on a few of our projects with them before, and the second that they came on board with the project, our confidence kind of skyrocketed. Just because we've had such a good experience with them previously.

 

00;19;27;23 - 00;19;37;24

DP

For all those young architects out there looking for work at a firm that they admire, how might you recommend young people find the right job?

 

00;19;37;26 - 00;20;22;06

JI

Well, the right job is kind of a hard thing to qualify. I think the best advice I could give on that is to just put your name out there wherever you can. Don't be shy in asking people for connections and asking people to kind of put you in a position that you think would be beneficial to you. With Marvel, actually, I had a friend from school who knew someone, and through them I was able to get my resume and I actually don't think Marvel was actively hiring. But I got the interview and it went very well. I loved everyone on the team and they loved me and I think I really landed in my right place. But I encourage everyone to really put yourself out to as many places as you can so you can see what fits for you and what works for you.

 

00;20;22;08 - 00;20;41;12

DP

I always kind of wonder is an older guy working in this field now to social media have a benefit in terms of finding work today? That is, is it easier to reach out to people that you simply don't know with your resume and thoughts about, hey, I'd love to work with your firm?

 

00;20;41;15 - 00;21;14;24

JI

Yeah, I think it plays a big part. It's playing an increasing part to Instagram as a way that I see a lot of firms work, a lot of firms putting out calls for applications for either positions or internships. It really increases the amount of exposure and it puts everything in one place where people might just passively see it.

 

And then there's also LinkedIn, where I get so many people messaging me about my experience at Marvel and kind of things that they're looking for, things that they would want to know about if they were to apply for a position or an internship.

 

00;21;14;27 - 00;22;17;12

DP

It's interesting, just as an aside, I never really thought about this, but when you said it puts things in one place, the web really does help them. It sounds really dumb, but to a guy like me who's 55 years old when I was young, you either have to see an architect work in a magazine, you visit their office and you get to see all the photos of all of their work.

 

But the web really does an amazing job of putting absolutely everything in one location, right? So you go, especially an app like Instagram, where you simply open it up, go to a page and you can see all 400 projects or 30 projects or whatever it is, and contact people at the firm in 2 minutes. It really has changed the paradigm for employment or simply for marketing and all these other things.

 

I know it all sounds very obvious, but as I sit here with a young architect, it makes me think that your world is simply very different than what mine used to be.

 

00;22;17;19 - 00;22;30;19

JI

I also think it's democratized in a way. It's given smaller firms a greater opportunity and platform to put their work out that it could be on the same level with the kind of content that you see from much larger firms.

 

00;22;30;22 - 00;22;40;06

DP

I love that. That makes a lot of sense. So, Jeremy, it's been great to have you here. Thank you so much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about Marvel and yourself?

 

00;22;40;06 - 00;22;50;03

JI

Yeah, thank you, Doug. You can visit our website, MarvelDesign.com or also please follow us on Instagram at @Marvel_is_design.

 

00;22;50;05 - 00;22;55;28

DP

All right well, Jeremy, thank you very much again for being here. It's been great to have you as a guest.

 

00;22;55;29 - 00;22;59;28

JI

Yeah. Thank you so much, Doug.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;10

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;12 - 00;00;34;05

Michelle Todd (MT)

So the whole idea was to fix the parapet and also to fix all of the step cracking within the facade. It was a beautiful building of brick in the front and the original status was that it had stucco on the very rear portion. We wind up finding out that this particular building, it wasn't brick behind it, it was actually wood.

 

So that therefore became more of an extensive project in which it wasn't just a renovation of the exterior facade, it was now a whole new addition and also an entire new rebuild.

 

00;00;34;07 - 00;01;01;23

DP

This is my guest, Michelle Todd. I'll share more about her shortly. In this episode from The Design Vault. We highlight Michelle's restoration project at 102 Bainbridge Street in Brooklyn's Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood. The Bainbridge Street renovation project is located in the Stuyvesant Heights Historic District. It was built within a row of buildings, which is a long group of houses planned to form seven freestanding architectural units.

 

00;01;01;28 - 00;03;46;13

DP

102 is situated at the end of the row. It's a modified Spanish residential style home with a triple arched loggia made of red brick laid in Flemish pond. The roof parapet rises at the center in an arch supported on concave shoulders. The restoration was begun to repair a buckling roof parapet, deteriorated walls, damaged pediment and cracking stucco facade.

 

Renovation work was extensive and a decision was made early not to replace the stucco, but rather leave and repair the natural brick masonry. The building scope also changed during construction from an exterior renovation to demolition and reconstruction due to construction material issues. Structural engineers were also consulted to create a necessary and unique wall construction method. The existing roof skylights, roof hatch and areas of limestone and bluestone were also repaired.

 

The project was also recently awarded the 2023 Lucy G. Moses New York Landmark Conservancy Award. Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Michelle Todd is an architect and principal of M.Todd Architects in Bedford-Stuyvesant, New York. Michelle has a master of science from Columbia University in architecture and urban design. She also studied at the École des Beaux-Arts in France.

 

Michelle grew up in Brooklyn's Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood in the 1970s. She knew she wanted to be an architect by the age of ten. Her interests today focus on urban planning and socially responsive architecture. After a brief stint at Perkins Eastman, she opened her own firm in 2008. Since then, she's worked for small and large corporations such as Snapple, the New York City Agency Office of Emergency Management, as well as private residential projects.

 

Her studio in Brooklyn, New York, focuses on historic renovations and additions, collaborating directly with clients and working closely with the general contractor during construction. Michelle's worked on Landmark designated buildings, bakeries, restaurants, schools and renovation projects. She's an adjunct professor at the New York City CUNY College and a licensed architect in New York State and Maryland. She's certified as a consultant with the International Institute of Building Enclosures, and Living Future accredited with the International Living Future Institute.

 

Welcome, Michelle. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about M.Todd Architects in Brooklyn. So where in Bed-Stuy are you located? What's the size of the firm? How long have you been around? And tell us a little more about project types.

 

00;03;46;16 - 00;04;19;19

MT

The firm is in the heart of Bedford-Stuyvesant on the whole Z Street. Been around since 2008 was almost 15 years as of March of this year, 2024. And basically the firm is small, is about three people, we specialize specifically in historical preservation, as well as residential private editions, commercial projects such as restaurants, bake houses and also schools. So basically you have a realm of achievement in different areas, which is commercial, residential and also business.

 

00;04;19;21 - 00;04;26;09

DP

So tell us a little bit about yourself. How long have you been practicing architecture and what's your role in the office as principal?

 

00;04;26;12 - 00;05;00;18

MT

I've been practicing architecture since 2008, when I received my license. However, I do have decades of experience before then in working at previous larger offices, in smaller offices to gain the experience I needed. Because, as you know, as an architect, you have to have at least three years working first in the field and then afterwards you're able to take the examination.

 

So once I did that, then just made initiative to just start my own practice. And basically I am the principal where I do a lot of marketing as well as clients in order to obtain business.

 

00;05;00;20 - 00;05;02;15

DP

And you said you have some employees?

 

00;05;02;21 - 00;05;13;16

MT

I do have employees. They're basically consultants. So basically I have a expediter. I have a drafts person. I have also my consultants, such as structural engineer, mechanical engineers.

 

00;05;13;19 - 00;05;21;08

DP

That's interesting. So you have an expediter that you guys use. And is that to make the process working with the city a little easier?

 

00;05;21;11 - 00;05;33;17

MT

It really does make it easier because as a person with a small firm, your hands are in everything. So to have somebody to be on the outside, to be able to do that type of work is appreciative and helpful.

 

00;05;33;19 - 00;05;46;05

DP

That's really cool. I mean, just as an aside, I hadn't really thought about the need for an expediter in a firm like that, but that makes perfect sense. So let's dig in here and talk about the home. How did your office get the project?

 

00;05;46;07 - 00;06;08;01

MT

I received the project in regards to as a dear friend, where I'm on the New York City Landmark Committee for Bedford-Stuyvesant specifically, and Community Board three, and he was a good member, Fred Jones, rest in peace. He had a friend who was in need of architectural services, so he recommended me to the client, which is the richest family, about this project.

 

00;06;08;03 - 00;06;10;01

DP

So you didn't know the clients before you got the job?

 

00;06;10;06 - 00;06;18;04

MT

I didn't know the clients. It was a friend of a friend, and he just talked highly about me and said that you should work with me in regards to this project.

 

00;06;18;06 - 00;06;24;26

DP

So give us a little history about the location. And was I correct in stating that the unit is an end unit?

 

00;06;24;29 - 00;07;08;00

MT

It is. It's in the beautiful, original, historic district of Bedford-Stuyvesant, which is known as Stuyvesant Heights, and it was established as a landmark district in 1971. So this set of buildings, it's literally between Stuyvesant and Lewis on Bainbridge. There's about 14 series of the buildings, and it's at the end row and there are Spanish style Renaissance buildings. That was created by W.f. McCarthy, who was an architect back in 1919.

 

And the unique thing about these buildings is that it's the only buildings I've ever been in with it has two staircases inside where there's one in the back and one in the front. So I guess back in those days they would have the servants come through the back and then the owners come through the front.

 

00;07;08;03 - 00;07;10;14

DP

Roughly, what's the square footage of the project?

 

00;07;10;16 - 00;07;13;09

MT

It's about 1200 square feet.

 

00;07;13;11 - 00;07;17;05

DP

And what was the scope and the programmatic requirements from the owner?

 

00;07;17;07 - 00;10;08;12

MT

Well, the original scope and program was that it was in terrible need in regards to the existing structure, the parapet was buckling. So on the north facade as well as the south and west facades, it was just crumbling. They were scared that it was going to fall down in some way. So the whole idea was to fix the parapet and also to fix all of the step cracking within the facade.

 

But then as we went along, we started to think also, it was a beautiful building of brick in the front. And the original status was that it had stucco on the very rear portion. Once we started to do the renovation was like, you know, we don't really need the stucco. It really looks beautiful with the brick itself. So we started to expose all the stucco, and by exposing all the stucco, we wound up finding out that this particular building, it wasn't brick behind it, it was actually wood.

 

So that therefore became more of an extensive project in which it wasn't just the renovation of the exterior facade, it was now a whole new addition and also an entire new rebuild. So we found out the history, and that was the nice thing about it. We really had to go back in the history of it. This is where the assistance of the expediter really came into play, because basically we found out that back in 1956, the building itself had a permit to actually do a addition because all of these beautiful houses.

 

What makes them so special in this neighborhood, too, is that they have their own private driveway, which many people don't have in that area. And also they have a garage. But then also on the second floor of each of these houses, they have a beautiful sunroom with a balcony. The person who owned the property at 102 Bainbridge, he basically wanted to make an addition.

 

So he eliminated that balcony and extended the whole square footage of the building so it can be enclosed. When we removed the stucco, we found out that instead of it masonry, he had it wood. So that was back in 1956. So we had to go back all the way to the building department to find out what the original drawings were, which we found out which were these beautiful blueprint drawings that you don't see anymore.

 

And it said that year they were legally supposed to have an addition, but it was supposed to be made out of brick, not wood. So that's where the whole expedition kind of came in. I had to go back to New York City building department, as well as the landmarks, because everyone was like shocked that it was wood versus masonry.

 

And we basically had to do a whole reconstruction. And that's where I guess the product of Glen-Gery came into play, because what happened to you is that on the back of the facade, all the bricks in the building weren't the same. The bricks in the front of the building were made out of Beldon, and it was a different type of color scheme.

 

But then when we removed the stucco in the back, it was a beautiful match with the Glen-Gery Kushwaha Calvert Plantation Middle Plantation, 52DD. It was a perfect match to it. Again, we had to go back to landmarks to make sure that they were approve of that brick to match what was in the rear facade that was being used.

 

00;10;08;15 - 00;10;17;12

DP

So what's interesting about the photographs that you sent is that the building looks as though some of these walls were completely taken down.

 

00;10;17;18 - 00;10;59;01

MT

It was because due to the fact it was stucco and I'm an architect that's very conscious about the environment. And stucco is something I concrete and it adds to the carbon footprint. So the whole idea was that this project specifically was to eliminate that process in really being more progressive and more enhancing to the environment. So that's why we didn't use stucco.

 

We wanted to just expose the beautiful masonry itself. And therefore, by eliminating the stucco, we saw the building was in need of much deeper repair than we expected. That was the thing, because in 1956 you figured that the contractors would be honest and they would do what they were supposed to do. But he wasn’t. And therefore that made this more of an adventure to get it right.

 

00;10;59;03 - 00;11;05;27

DP

So I would imagine there are a number of other buildings on that block that were also made of wood, that the interior wall construction. Is that correct?

 

00;11;06;00 - 00;11;44;10

MT

I don't know. That's the whole thing. What happened is, what makes this special is that this is the only house that has the addition. That's it. Everybody else has the sunroom. So this once in particular you thought that you would put it in masonry, but it's in it makes sense. First landmarks had to come and see it.

 

They were, like, shocked. Then I received the structural engineer, which was SOMA Engineering Firm, which is a great engineering firm. They came, they were shocked. The construction company that we work with, Naim Construction, all of us was basically shocked that this was behind the stucco because it looked like everything was fine. But when exposed, that's when we all gathered together as a team to like how we can resolve this.

 

00;11;44;16 - 00;11;52;22

DP

Interesting. Let's back up and talk a little bit about the plan of the building. I would assume it's just a large rectangle, two storey rectangle.

 

00;11;52;24 - 00;11;54;23

MT

Exactly. It was a two storey rectangle.

 

00;11;55;00 - 00;11;59;29

DP

And had you been contracted to design the interiors as well?

 

00;12;00;04 - 00;12;20;18

MT

I have for later date because what happens is based on the fact that now the photographs that you have here show of what it was existing. We went back to the premise of what it was back in 1919 when the solarium had these beautiful corner windows. So the design now is encompassing back the original style of that format.

 

00;12;20;20 - 00;12;25;05

DP

So you had to work with the city. How long did that process take?

 

00;12;25;08 - 00;12;53;21

MT

This is how it began. The project began in May 2020, during the pandemic. Then we actually had approval to start construction in April of 2021. Then all of these items, open issues about the facade not being what it was, and reconstruction, we basically spent about two years after that, and it was completed around October 20, 23. So it was back and forth with New York Landmarks as well as New York City Building Department.

 

00;12;53;27 - 00;12;55;09

DP

And the client had somewhere to live.

 

00;12;55;16 - 00;13;08;12

MT

He lived on the first floor. So the top floor. It was a blessing that he was able to live on the first floor while all this construction was going on. And in the top floor, basically, he had tenants, but then they moved out. When this major construction of us doing the rebuild.

 

00;13;08;15 - 00;13;09;07

DP

A lot of noise.

 

00;13;09;13 - 00;13;11;04

MT

It was a lot of noise.

 

00;13;11;04 - 00;13;11;23

DP

Very dusty.

 

00;13;11;24 - 00;13;15;00

MT

But it was fun.

 

00;13;15;02 - 00;13;24;10

DP

That's great. I'm interested as an architect about the drawings that you created in the very beginning. Did you work in 3D or just 2D?

 

00;13;24;12 - 00;13;33;28

MT

I worked in 2D, but then afterwards, when we started to look at what this condition that was taking place in the rear, I started looking at it in 3D and how it would be.

 

00;13;34;05 - 00;13;38;05

DP

And did you have to present drawings to a historic commission?

 

00;13;38;07 - 00;13;47;14

MT

Yes, we present it to Brian Blazak, is one of the senior preservationists on in New York City Landmarks. We had to show the drawings of what we planned to do.

 

00;13;47;16 - 00;13;48;26

DP

Exterior elevations?

 

00;13;49;03 - 00;13;50;24

MT

Yeah, exterior elevations.

 

00;13;50;26 - 00;13;58;25

DP

So again, backing up a little bit, you removed the stucco on one facade and replaced masonry on another. Is that correct?

 

00;13;58;28 - 00;14;25;03

MT

It's on the same facade. What happens is, is that the entire facade was placed in stucco. But then when we looked at the south elevation, so the windows were there, but it was infilled with wood. And that's what was shocking to everybody because basically it was really dilapidated and it also kind of made sense for the owner later on because he said his tenants always felt cold in that part of the room.

 

And it made sense because it was the wood and that masonry, there was no insulation whatsoever.

 

00;14;25;06 - 00;14;30;17

DP

So tell us a little bit about the new wall system that you guys had to create because of that condition.

 

00;14;30;19 - 00;15;17;03

MT

So the new wall system was still going back to what was historically done in regards to the rear facade was made out of three widths of brick, which basically is like three layers. And what we had to do is that we had to abide by what the actual, once we removed the stucco, what the actual pattern was, because it was a common bond, because as I stated in the beginning, the pattern in the front of the house was completely different than the pattern in the back of the house.

 

So once we established that, then we wanted to really make it structurally sound and we incorporated steel within the wall. So basically you have the three whiffs of brick on the outside, then you have the steel. It was stainless steel that made sure it was resource sustainably. And then we have our insulation and then our finishes in the inside.

 

00;15;17;06 - 00;15;26;25

DP

So the project sounds really interesting. Did you guys learn anything new about construction technologies or about building typologies in working on this project?

 

00;15;26;27 - 00;15;58;06

MT

Yes, the use of materials because again, was very selective about which materials we're going to use because since this building was already historically landmarked since 1919, we wanted to make sure that it lasts for another 100 years. So was very selective on who the steel came from, where the insulation came from, where the bricks came from. All of these were really mindful things and I think moving forward with other projects, I continue doing that, making sure that they are friendly to the planet as well as to the people who are going to live and utilize the buildings.

 

00;15;58;08 - 00;16;04;18

DP

So did the client bring the general contractor to the project or did you interview a number of contractors?

 

00;16;04;20 - 00;16;10;09

MT

We did interview a number of contractors, but then the client himself selected Naim Construction for it.

 

00;16;10;12 - 00;16;15;19

DP

And clearly there's a lot of masonry work. Did you have any challenges finding a good mason?

 

00;16;15;21 - 00;16;45;27

MT

Oh no. He has very excellent masons and they were very accommodating because we had to go back and forth with New York City Landmarks when we were selecting the bricks where we had to actually do a sample of the wall where the wood infill was of how the brick was going to look. So one of his masons, George, was really who's one of the oldest ones there.

 

It has most experience. He was very patient. We went on the scaffolding and it was a really cold day, but we did the whole mock up and it came out beautiful. And therefore Landmark said, Yes, go with it.

 

00;16;45;29 - 00;16;49;16

DP

So you did the mock up and the city came out and took a look at it?

 

00;16;49;19 - 00;16;56;05

MT

No, we took photographs and then afterwards they were like, because it was cold.

 

00;16;56;07 - 00;17;05;24

DP

So the city doesn't like to go out on cold days? I think we’ll leave that in there. That's good. So I assume the client's living there now?

 

00;17;06;02 - 00;17;09;17

MT

He is. He's living in the bottom floor still, but he's happy with the work.

 

00;17;09;20 - 00;17;12;25

DP

So is it complete? And he has a tenant on the second floor?

 

00;17;13;00 - 00;17;22;21

MT

He doesn't have a tenant on the second floor. And it's not quite complete yet because now we're just waiting for the historical windows to come in. So that is the last crème de la crème.

 

00;17;22;23 - 00;17;24;27

DP

And who is the manufacturer of the windows?

 

00;17;25;03 - 00;17;36;10

MT

It is Norwood Manufacturers, a Canadian company. And again, it was very selective on them because the way they use and harvest wood in order to make the windows, we're really mindful about that.

 

00;17;36;17 - 00;17;39;23

DP

Interesting. Are they double glazed? Triple glazed?

 

00;17;39;25 - 00;17;49;03

MT

They're triple glazed, low e glass index and they're quite beautiful. They're the original to what was there before of the windows? So they're replicating those.

 

00;17;49;05 - 00;17;57;00

DP

So I'm curious in terms of color, you were able to find a brick that you were happy with. You said that matched on the exterior.

 

00;17;57;02 - 00;18;12;16

MT

The contractor has suggested he was like, this will be a perfect break. I did research and was a Glen-Gery Kushwaha Calvert 52 DD Middle Plantation. That was the one that was selected. And when we put it in place, it was perfect to what was there from 1919.

 

00;18;12;22 - 00;18;15;27

DP

So do all these row homes, they all must look the same?

 

00;18;16;02 - 00;18;45;16

MT

They basically all look the same. And the other fascinating thing too, with the project, when we were doing the demo for the wood infield, all the bricks, I learned this like recently from my practice that the bricks that we were removing, that were there all had the names of the brick companies on there. And you don't see that anymore in which they were actually etched into the brick.

 

I was like, Wow, It's like, fascinating. So it was like an archeological project in the same way of doing something better for the building for another hundred years.

 

00;18;45;19 - 00;18;52;24

DP

So when you guys put these new windows in, what about the color? Can you do whatever color you want or the colors have to match the other homes.

 

00;18;52;26 - 00;18;57;13

MT

The colors have to match. It is going to be made out of wood, but they're going to be of a white finish.

 

00;18;57;16 - 00;19;00;10

DP

And they have to be traditional in style to match the others.

 

00;19;00;16 - 00;19;01;06

MT

Exactly.

 

00;19;01;06 - 00;19;11;17

DP

Interesting. So, Michelle, you've been an architect for some time. Based on what you know today about being an architect, you have any words of advice for your younger self or maybe architects coming up in the ranks?

 

00;19;11;19 - 00;19;41;21

MT

I would say don't quit on yourself. That's for me personally, as a woman and a woman of color in this industry, to always just believe in yourself, that what you find really interesting and powerful within yourself will just keep working at it and you'll get recognition. But it's not really about the recognition. I've always known I wanted to be an architect.

 

I feel architecture is like a stewardship. You are helping other people to obtain their desires and dreams and designs, but then also, too, helping the planet.

 

00;19;41;24 - 00;19;49;23

DP

So, Michelle, it's been great to have you here today. Thank you so much for your time. Where could people go to learn more M.Todd Architect and yourself?

 

00;19;49;26 - 00;19;56;06

MT

You can find me on my website at  MToddArchitects.com and then also I'm on LinkedIn.

 

00;19;56;08 - 00;19;58;10

DP

Well, thank you very much. It has been great to have you.

 

00;19;58;17 - 00;20;00;24

MT

Thank you so much. Appreciate the opportunity.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;10

DP (Doug Pat)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;12 - 00;00;33;19

JI (Jeremy Iannucci)

So the site's essentially just a rectangle. It's the size of a full city block. So the way that we've organized the buildings around the site is in this U-shape, where they start up in the northwest corner. Move around down West Street and then below, creating a U that opens up towards the water. We try to open up the view corridors from the building and leave as much view towards the water and towards the horizon from the rest of Greenpoint as we can.

 

00;00;33;22 - 00;02;07;13

DP

In this special series, we're unlocking some of the most powerful conversations we've had so far. We're connecting the dots, revealing hidden gems, and unearthing insights that might have slipped by. All to spark your next big idea with brick. Whether you're looking for fresh inspiration or innovative solutions, this series is designed to fuel your creativity. So let's dive in.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

 

Today we explore mixed use developments, a type of urban design that integrates multiple uses such as residential, commercial, cultural, institutional, and entertainment into one cohesive space. Mixed use projects aim to create vibrant, interconnected communities by physically and functionally blending these diverse components, often prioritizing pedestrian friendly environments. This bonus episode highlights three remarkable mixed use projects from past episodes, emphasizing insights from architects Jeremy Iannucci, John Zimmer, and Vincente Quiroga.

 

We'll explore the architectural design process, construction challenges and the thoughtful use of materials, particularly brickwork, to bring these complex developments to life.

 

Jeremy Iannucci discussed One Java, a residential project in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. This ambitious development balances sustainability, affordability and marketability with cutting edge features.

 

00;02;07;19 - 00;02;36;27

JI

The site's 200ft in the North south and then between West Street and the East River around 600ft, with 40ft reserved for a waterfront esplanade. We actually pulled back even a little bit further from that, and it's located right on the waterfront in Greenpoint. There was recently a rezoning that allowed for a whole redesign of the waterfront, and our project is one of the earlier projects in that redevelopment.

 

00;02;36;29 - 00;02;42;19

DP

So could you give us an idea of what the scope of the project is and the programmatic requirements?

 

00;02;42;26 - 00;03;03;06

JI

So it's a residential project of around 834 units, encompassing a total of around 800,000ft². This also comes with a series of amenity spaces, a series of retail spaces, as well as that waterfront park and also a collection of rooftop amenities in greenspace.

 

00;03;03;08 - 00;03;10;03

DP

So let's talk about the building design. Stylistically, were you guys borrowing from anything locally?

 

00;03;10;05 - 00;03;35;06

JI

We like to think that the entire project comes from the community around it. We looked at a series of precedents in the Greenpoint neighborhood historically, and Greenpoint specifically on the waterfront, to inspire the way that we detail these facades. We have a collection of different brick styles that help to break up the massing of the building, different articulations, as well as material bricks with the two precast towers.

 

00;03;35;08 - 00;03;40;11

DP

So what was on the site before you guys ended up building the new architecture?

 

00;03;40;13 - 00;04;04;25

JI

Previously, there was a two story warehouse on the site, and it really was kind of a beautiful space in its own right before. We got the chance to tour around, before it was demolished. And I think walking around really inspired us just with these qualities of light and materials and things that were really native to the waterfront before all of this redevelopment.

 

00;04;04;28 - 00;04;14;08

DP

And the project, as I said, very large. Could you tell me a little bit about the zoning requirements and any challenges you guys had in terms of planning?

 

00;04;14;10 - 00;05;11;19

JI

So the project is as of right. It follows the zoning guidelines. The lot itself is actually split up into two different zones. So towards the inland it's mostly low rise. We had a height cap of 65ft with portions that were allowable to go up to 100. And then towards the waterfront. The zoning actually got a little more complicated where there were a few different conditions that you could meet.

 

It opened up these different paths for how the building could be formed. One path was a one tower scheme, which would bring you up to 360ft. And then the other was actually a two tower scheme where if one tower made it to 200ft, the other would be allowed up to 400ft. We took advantage of that in order to move more of the mass to the waterfront.

 

It helped gradually declined building back into the fabric of the community, and it provided more waterfront views.

 

00;05;11;21 - 00;05;19;14

DP

John Zimmer shared insights on The Lively, an 18 story tower in Jersey City's Powerhouse Arts District.

 

00;05;19;17 - 00;06;12;23

JZ (John Zimmer)

The Powerhouse Arts District in Jersey City is so named because there is a somewhat iconic powerhouse there. It had been an industrial area that was targeted for redevelopment, and they had design standards for the entire district that were meant to maintain that character. Not necessarily industrial, but loft style, focus on the arts. The entire district has a strong focus on the arts, which is part of the reason we have the black box theater in The Lively.

 

It's experienced a lot of new development over the course of the last decade, and it's pretty great today. When I first started going over to the powerhouse ten years ago, I'd get out of meetings and the sidewalks would be deserted, and today it feels like Brooklyn. It feels like the East Village. I mean, it is incredibly, for want of a better word, lively.

 

So it's a great neighborhood now, and it's all happened in the last decade. It's an exciting thing to have been a part of, honestly.

 

00;06;12;26 - 00;06;20;01

DP

This mixed use development includes retail spaces, a black box theater, and residential units.

 

00;06;20;03 - 00;07;17;00

JZ

180 residential units. Lennar is one of the biggest home builders in America, but they were mostly doing suburban subdivision work. They got into the urban markets. I can't tell you exactly one, but they were still a little bit new to it. When we took this project on and they were ambitious, they wanted to be at the absolute top of the market for a residential building in Jersey city.

 

And obviously, as any developer does, they wanted to maximize rentable square footage and get the most bang for their buck. And they had this requirement for the black box theater. You know, the project came with this with its approval, but it got a zoning bonus for having the theater in the base of extra height. It was a give back to the community that was written into the zoning, and we always knew it was going to be a theater, and we always knew it was going to be for a nonprofit arts group.

 

And that arts program as part of the building was in the DNA of the project from the very beginning, and informed a lot of the decisions moving forward became part of the personality of the building throughout, not just the theater itself, really.

 

00;07;17;03 - 00;07;23;18

DP

Vincente Quiroga discussed 29 Huron, a two tower development in Greenpoint, Brooklyn.

 

00;07;23;20 - 00;08;40;15

VQ (Vincente Quiroga)

The history of the site, you know, it's a long, narrow site. Our building massing is 100ft in the north south direction. It's over 500ft in the east west direction. So it's very distended and lengthened and narrowed. The original site was a one story warehouse, which was kind of the context of the neighborhood. I lived in that neighborhood many years ago, and that was the context.

 

The context is changing primarily because in a sort of Bloomberg era, there was up zoning plan, but then the 2008 crisis stalled those plans, and it took a while for that increase, zoning and development to come to fruition. And so we were part of that increased zoning for the site. In terms of the massing, we wanted to take a sense of the character that was there and honor that.

 

Not all the projects that we see built. Really take that into account. And we were thinking, what is the context now and what was the context in the past? So we really thought about selecting a one story podium and selecting brick as the foundation for that, and also being practical about the openings and where they are located. The emphasis for the target population would be families.

 

So large units, lots of two bedroom and three bedroom units, a lot of outdoor access and the views because of its waterfront proximity.

 

00;08;40;18 - 00;09;05;15

DP

Yeah, the site is unbelievable and you guys really take advantage of just about everything out there. It's a great project. So let's talk about the design. So first let's talk about the building stylistically. So to me it looks a lot like a very contemporary warehouse space right. So there's lots of glass. It almost appears lantern like in the photos that I saw at dusk.

It's beautiful.

 

00;09;05;18 -  00;09;34;00

VQ

The choice of the materials was very specific. The neighborhood has a unique grid orientation to the world, and so it captures the light in the sunrise and sunset, in particular the brick. We chose to be a rough molded brick with a dark mortar, and the metal panel has a mica flake to it that captures the light and changes throughout the day.

 

So some times it looks orange and coppery. Sometimes it actually looks bronze toned and it has a chocolate Sienna under glass to it.

 

00;09;34;07 - 00;09;42;01

DP

Each project faced unique challenges. 29 Huron is situated in a flood zone requiring innovative solutions.

 

00;09;42;04 - 00;10;20;28

VQ

The first story is about 17ft in height, and so there's some very high ceiling experiences there, ranging from 12 to 14ft ceilings within the amenities alone. And that also gave us the room to deal with some of the flood constraints as well. Being that the site is adjacent to the East River, the predicted flood zones right now are anywhere from 5 to 6ft above grade.

 

So that was a challenge and a constraint early on where we had to coordinate. We certainly decided we weren't going to excavate because of the high water table. So some of the functions that you would put in the cellar, we put a grade, but we often had to elevate the critical services six feet above where you normally would place them.

 

00;10;21;01 - 00;10;27;26

DP

So I'm curious, when you're digging that close to the water, do you get a lot of water, a lot of groundwater coming in when you're creating your foundation?

 

00;10;27;27 - 00;10;56;08

VQ

Yes. You do. Yes. Early on there was a lot of pile driving very deep anywhere from, I would say 30 or 40ft down. And those piles were linked up with large caps, pile caps, and then mat foundations at the towers. The slab itself, because of, you know, you have to think more like a boat or a bathtub. The slab itself was anywhere from 24in to 18in thick at various points throughout it, and it has to resist uplift.

 

00;10;56;11 - 00;11;01;27

DP

Well, that's really interesting. So when you're driving piles and there's a lot of bedrock, how do you do that?

 

00;11;01;29 - 00;11;21;04

VQ

The nature of the historic waterfront is often landfilled. So a lot of it is just trash or sediment. Over 200 years, people just dump things in the river. And it created a new shoreline, which was often the case, as you see in lower Manhattan as well. So we knew that we were going to have to go deep to hit rock.

 

00;11;21;10 - 00;11;25;28

DP

So you're driving the piles then 25 or 30ft in?

 

00;11;25;29 - 00;12;21;29

VQ

Yeah. And another challenge relating to the waterfront edges we had to deal with actually coordinate with the marine architect because the edge condition was failing and we needed to remediate it. So we coordinated a new driving a new sheet edge along the shore to create that. The site actually is interesting in that it has a natural cove condition that other areas along the waterfront don't.

 

And so we recreated that in the remediation. But we also worked with the landscape architect to create this, We're obligated by zoning to create a setback for public access on the site. So they really leaned into that curved cove condition that's set back and stepped it down to the water gradually from grade, and incorporated eco concrete blocks that have various pockets that allow kind of tidepool action to happen.

 

And so we thought about breaking down the shoreline a little bit and not just a hard edge.

 

00;12;22;02 - 00;12;31;12

DP

It sounds really interesting. I mean, when somebody owns a piece of property like that and it's really sitting on debris, in many cases, it's kind of unusual.

 

00;12;31;14 - 00;13;07;28

VQ

I mean, we tried to find opportunities to maximize the value of the site with the two towers strategy. We put lots of valuable floor area up high and took advantage of the views. We made double the amount of corner units that you could have by having a two towers. We also separated them over 100ft apart, so that the west tower really gets out there in front of other buildings that are it's alongside the east tower is a setback for the east to kind of get around other buildings that could obscure it.

 

And we were actually surprised at how good the views are as it was being built. We knew it was going to be good, but it actually turned out to be better than we anticipated.

 

00;13;08;00 - 00;13;14;27

DP

It's really beautiful about the design as the corners are opened up, then to become porches, right? Terraces. Is that correct?

 

00;13;15;00 - 00;13;34;04

VQ

That's right. So as part of that is a response to some zoning constraints. At a certain height, you also had to setback in multiple directions. And one of the things that we like to do is incorporate our balconies into the building facade and not just look like appendages. So we really took advantage of that setback rule and created these covered, protected balconies.

 

00;13;34;07 - 00;13;44;23

DP

The Lively was also situated in a flood zone, requiring solutions such as deployable barriers, elevated critical systems and flood resistant glazing.

 

00;13;44;25 - 00;14;09;02

JZ

The unique topographic feature would be that it's below the 100 year flood elevation. That's always a big deal. And the sidewalks there, I think are about five feet above sea level. So flood protection resiliency, ground floor uses. How do you enter the building? How do you avoid nuisance flooding when it's not a 100 year storm? Those were all big aspects of the design of the ground floor or the pedestrian experience.

 

00;14;09;05 - 00;14;10;16

DP

So breakaway walls?

 

00;14;10;23 - 00;14;40;01

JZ

There are deployable flood barrier systems designed in. So the flood elevation is seven feet above the sidewalk. In the event of a massive tech, a hurricane Sandy kind of thing, they would deploy these flood barrier systems. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but they keep them in storage and they come out and they both enter the building, or they spread them around the building.

 

They can be self-supporting, and they have to be deployed in a certain amount of time because it's an emergency response system. So a big part of all the projects in this area.

 

00;14;40;06 - 00;14;44;17

DP

And what about zoning codes? You had mentioned you had a height issue.

 

00;14;44;19 - 00;15;27;12

JZ

Yeah. So the building got, I think, 65 additional feet for having the black box theater in it. That was one zoning aspect. You can see the cantilever here over the sidewalk. There was a sidewalk widening requirement in the zoning. So that made it obviously challenging. You've got 17 stories of residences coming down over a cantilever that allows the sidewalk to be wider at the base.

 

That was an interesting challenge. There's a little bit of parking in the building that came from the zoning. So obviously some structural challenges there as well. Whenever you're putting that many residences over the top of a parking garage. The second floor here that you see through the window, that is also designated art space in the zoning also requirement.

 

00;15;27;14 - 00;15;32;26

DP

So I don't do tall buildings. How many extra floors to 65ft get you?

 

00;15;32;29 - 00;15;59;27

JZ

I think it was basically five because the top floor is an amenity space, rooftop amenity, which was specifically permitted by the zoning bonus. I think it really made the building, the massing and the expression of these mid-range buildings is a little bit tricky. They're not as tall as they want to be to be a tall building, and they're not as low rise as they want to be to be a low rise building.

 

And I think the extra stories really help to give it a little bit more verticality. It's a better piece of architecture for it.

 

00;16;00;02 - 00;16;03;22

DP

So tell us about the building plan. You said there's a sharp corner.

 

00;16;03;24 - 00;16;47;10

JZ

Yeah, very acute corner. There's two lot lines and it has a corner lot. So right where you have your corner window with two exposures, there's a very acute corner and I can't remember the actual degrees. But anytime you have a building it's not just the corner that's a problem. In fact the corner isn't really a problem. You may not be able to put a sofa in that corner, but the corner per se is not a problem.

 

It's kind of a cool room to be inside of, but what it means is that the apartments on each of those two different streets are on different geometries. And so if you're going to have a rectilinear apartment on streets that are at such different geometries that all crashes into each other at the corner and at the corridors and at the courtyards, so it becomes very challenging to plan buildings that feel sensible and projects that have this kind of site.

 

00;16;47;12 - 00;16;59;02

DP

The narrow, irregular site of The Lively, demanded creative massing strategies to optimize space while meeting zoning requirements and maintaining contextual sensitivity.

 

00;16;59;05 - 00;18;01;13

JZ

From its get go. There was never any question it was going to be a contemporary building. As far as where we drew our inspiration from and what we were looking at, you know, I mentioned the difficulty, the massing for these midnight buildings. I think the gathering together, the window openings into these vertical slots helps to emphasize the verticality of the building.

 

We have this prominent gold portal for the black box theater and the building entrance, and that became an idea that we repeated throughout the facade frame, these moments on the facade. And I think generally we try to be pretty rigorous about how the facades are designed. Obviously you've got structural continuity, but then you've got what always happens in residential design is you've got living rooms that are one width and you've got bedrooms that are a different width.

 

And so a strictly rational grid is probably not going to serve you well for a residential building the way it does for a commercial building. So you're often trying to find a way to manage that. If your interest is fundamentally and having a kind of rigorous and rational facade, you're trying to find a way to manage those partitions hitting the wall.

 

00;18;01;13 - 00;18;19;27

JZ

And what does that mean? And at the same time, I think creating a facade with movement and interest and dynamism and that play on the facade, I think was always an important part. And you could say it is part of the emphasis on the arts and the theater and dance, but also obviously just an interest in creating something fresh.

 

00;18;19;29 - 00;18;28;25

DP

At One Java for the project prioritized views and thoughtful use of materials which elevated the design and ensured long term durability.

 

00;18;28;28 - 00;18;56;15

JI

So the site's essentially just a rectangle. It's the size of a full city block, and on three sides on the north, the east and the south, we have streets. And then the west side is the waterfront. It's the East River. So the way that we've organized the buildings around the site is in this U-shape where they start up in the northwest corner, move around down West Street and then below, creating a view that opens up towards the water.

 

00;18;56;18 - 00;18;59;18

DP

So it's really all about the views, which it should be.

 

00;18;59;20 - 00;19;14;19

JI

Yes, it's something that it needs to be on the waterfront as well as it is about the views back into the neighborhood. We try to open up the view corridors from the building and leave as much view towards the water and towards the horizon from the rest of Greenpoint as we can.

 

00;19;14;22 - 00;19;24;13

DP

So tell us a little bit about the material choices. We've got a series of different materials and colors there. What were the decisions behind that?

 

00;19;24;15 - 00;20;16;04

JI

The building massing itself is broken up into five unique buildings, and out of those we have two towers that are precast, and those are the buildings on the waterfront. And then inland, there are three different buildings that range from ten stories to six stories. And those three buildings are brick, and that we really wanted to draw back from a lot of our inspirations in the Greenpoint community.

 

There's no shortage of brick precedents there. There's beautiful buildings such as The Astral, which is this queen in red brick terracotta building. There's Saint Anthony's Church, which is red brick and limestone trim. It's really beautiful, striking building. We looked towards kind of the history of the waterfront, those manufacturing industrial buildings, and used that precedent to define these brick colors, these three different brick buildings.

 

00;20;16;06 - 00;20;44;28

DP

So interestingly, the facades. So we've got the shorter or we've got the less tall architecture, which are brick buildings, and the facades are a series of what I'll call punctures with spandrel. It looks like spandrel brick in between each one of these vertically in between each one of the window openings. Correct? Yes. So how many studies did you guys end up doing to decide what these facades looked like?

 

00;20;45;00 - 00;21;23;17

JI

Everything kind of melded together. At some point, it's hard to break it down into a number because it was just this completely iterative process where we'd look at something, we'd make a model, we draw it, we'd look at it again, we'd make another model, we draw it. And this evolved from the concept, schematic designs all the way through to the construction document development.

 

This idea of the different brick details that actually came from wanting to streamline the project. So we use the same details on each of the brick buildings, but we remix them in each one. We use them in a different order to create a different identity for each of these.

 

00;21;23;19 - 00;21;40;29

DP

I think what's really interesting about these facades too, so you separate them facades into squares or rectangles, and then they have this very well. It looks subtle in elevation from far away, but it's actually a very large construction joint in between each one of these square rectangular panels. Correct?

 

00;21;41;02 - 00;21;56;02

JI

Yes. We use that construction joint and we overemphasize it. We use this double soldier coursing reveal tool as a way to further break up the massing and kind of imply this subdivisions within the buildings.

 

00;21;56;05 - 00;21;59;01

DP

And how deep is that, is that one brick thickness?

 

00;21;59;04 - 00;22;00;20

JI

It's two inches.

 

00;22;00;20 - 00;22;11;11

DP

Two inches. It's nice because when you look at the facade, I mean, it looks quite homogenous. But if you look at it a little bit more deeply, it's separated into these squares and rectangles. It's very pretty.

 

00;22;11;16 - 00;22;30;20

JI

Yeah. That's the effect that we really want to go for in terms of how this fits into the fabric of Greenpoint. We like the idea of there being this large scale massing that breaks down and continues to break down the closer you get, and it relates to more of your scale relative to the way that you're viewing it.

 

00;22;30;22 - 00;22;52;26

DP

You know, as an aside, what's really pretty, the red brick that you guys use there, there are a lot of lighter bricks in that facade, and so it makes it look almost pink in color, but you get up close to it and you can see a lot of variations in these colors in the red colored brick, a lot of like I'll call it value, but it's light and dark red brick.

 

00;22;52;29 - 00;23;57;04

JI

For that facade we're using a blended brick, and we wanted that to echo some of the red brick buildings that you already see on West Street, on the waterfront. That was kind of our launching point for coming up with this brick palette. We knew that there was going to be a red brick building. We knew that it was going to be relative to those warehouses.

 

And then the other two bricks were kind of an offshoot that based on how we wanted to frame this story of the building as you move around the site. So to the north, there's a lighter brick. It's something that we see as a little more modern. We try to keep the tones of the brick and mortar and the sills and other materials a little more homogenous.

 

And then on the flip side of that, on the southern street of the building, Java Street, we wanted to use something with a bit more variation. We wanted a higher contrast between the ground and the brick, a higher variability within the bricks. And that's something that we saw as a little more nostalgic to some of those worker housings and the smaller buildings that you begin to see as you move more inland.

 

00;23;57;07 - 00;24;41;16

DP

These mixed use projects demonstrate how brick and thoughtful architectural design can serve as a bridge between the past and future. By blending functionality with design, each project contributes to its community while addressing practical and esthetic goals.

 

Jeremy, John and Vincenet emphasize the importance of collaboration, innovation, and a deep understanding of site context in achieving these outcomes. Ultimately, these developments showcase how mixed use projects can create vibrant, connected urban environments, enriching neighborhoods through thoughtful integration of diverse uses and attention to detail in design and execution.

 

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;14

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;17 - 00;00;33;16

John Woelfling (JW)

We looked at that rectangle and where the opportunity was to expand the building horizontally, and then really started to figure out where the best units would be located, where the best apartment layouts would be in the existing building. It was actually a challenge. We were not going to change the fenestration where the windows are located or the size of the windows.

 

So that really dictated a lot of the apartment placements and the size. So I think we were pretty clever about putting all the like fundamentals and figuring out how the floorplan would come together.

 

00;00;33;23 - 00;03;17;20

DP

This is my guest, John Woelfling. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we highlight John's project 50 Nevins Street. 50 Nevins Street is located in downtown Brooklyn. It literally appears to be two buildings in one. The approach was to reinvigorate a century old building through gut renovation and addition, which provides affordable housing, housing for formerly homeless individuals and mental health services.

 

The historic site, with its new ten story addition, features 129 new apartments. The building was originally designed by famed Brooklyn architect Frank Freeman, opened in 1913 as a YWCA. In the early 1930s an extensive portion of the building was shaved off to enlarge. Schermerhorn Street and make way for the subway line. That adjustment resulted in an imbalance to the original Colonial Revival building.

 

The new couple design ascribes value to the existing building and helps restore the balance it had lost. The existing red brick building remains shorter with a classical cornice. The new building sits slightly taller, flush and adjacent with a recessed connector which visually separates the architecture. The contrast in masonry color, dark connector and stylistic changes to the forms and facades set the two buildings apart esthetically, though clearly their co-combined.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. John Woelfling is a partner at Dattner Architects in New York City and holds a Bachelor of Architecture from Virginia Tech. John leverages his broad experiences working across project types like education, recreation, health care and infrastructure to inform his leadership of the firm's mixed use residential projects.

 

John is a recognized passive house expert. His focus on sustainable design practices is guided by proactive education of evolving green technologies and incorporating them into his work. John's committed to creating sustainable, efficient designs that use an integrated, holistic approach. He frequently lectures about affordable housing and sustainability. Speaking at the Center for Architecture, the New York State AIA, Urban Green and Green Build, Forum for Urban Design, Reimagine Conference and the Phius Passive House Conference.

 

So welcome, John. Nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Dattner Architects in New York City. Where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;17;22 - 00;05;20;11

JW

So Dattner Architects is a firm that's been around for close to 60 years. We are located in Midtown Manhattan, just like a ten minute walk from the studio, so it's nice and easy to get over here. We've been there for a little over a year and a half, but our offices have been in New York City for our entire life of the firm, we’re about 110 people now.

 

I just met with a few people and we're looking at hiring some more people. So it's a good time to be practicing in New York City and working on housing and the wide variety of work that my firm does. We do a mixed bag of cornucopia of project types. We do housing, which is what we're going to talk about today.

 

We do subway stations, we do marine transfer stations for garbage, we do a salt shed here or there, medical health care, schools, libraries, a whole mixture of projects. I'm going to talk about some of the advantages that gives us a little bit further on if we can.

 

One of the projects that you or maybe some of your listeners know is a project that's on the West Side Highway at Spring Street. It is a salt shed. These types of projects that you might normally see that are a salt shed are very utilitarian domes, and they just protect the salt from the elements. But our project, we did something kind of clever, which was we created this shell that was inspired by the crystal and shape of the salt. So it's this kind of crystal that sits along the water along the West Side highway.

 

So if you're going up and down the West Side Highway, you've probably seen this. Keep your eyes open for it now. But that's an example of how my office has this sensibility of taking these very civic things that could be very plain and very understated and look for those opportunities. And sometimes we hit a home run, sometimes, you know, we get on base.

 

But each one of those projects is a real opportunity to take a civic piece of architecture, which is what we do. We do civic architecture, and we look to make the city, the city that we live in the best that it can be. So I'm very proud to be part of the work that we do. It's a large group of people, as I said, 110 people. It's inspiring every day to be able to go into the office and work with such a great group of people.

 

00;05;20;14 - 00;05;37;25

DP

That's so great. I mean, you're doing exactly what you're taught to do in architecture school, right? You're taking advantage of the project at hand, you're being creative, you're being thoughtful, you're impressing the client, you're making beautiful things for people that live in the city. It sounds fun and it's a good time to be working. You said you're busy.

 

00;05;38;02 - 00;06;15;19

JW

Yes, we are busy. We've had some ups and downs. But I do think one of the advantages of our firm is that we have this mixed group of typologies. So, you know, when housing was like going gangbusters a couple of years ago, we were really busy and a lot of our work was housing. But as things have shifted over to more infrastructure, which is actually what we're seeing, we're seeing a lot more investment in infrastructure.

 

We're having those subway type projects, those marine transfer stations, those types of utilitarian transportation and infrastructure projects are taking over a greater percentage of our work. So we're continuing to stay busy. So the old adage of diversifying your portfolio applies to many, many things.

 

00;06;15;21 - 00;06;20;29

DP

So you are a principal in the firm. How long have you been there and what's your role in the office now?

 

00;06;21;01 - 00;08;13;19

JW

So I have been a principal there for 20 years. I've been practicing as an architect in the city for 30 years. So I landed at Dattner relatively early in my career and found it to be a great place to stay and work. So I've been there for that long. One of the things that I focus on now is our housing work, our housing studio.

 

As I mentioned a few minutes ago, the housing work has been a great source of workload in the past decade, 15, ten years. As that work became more and more important in the office, we needed to have leadership to take over and really guide that practice. And one of the things that me and others in the office have been focusing on is integrating really innovative, sustainable design strategies into our housing.

 

And this, I think, has its biggest benefit in affordable housing. The way housing often gets developed in dense urban environments like New York City is that it is the harder to develop sites that are most likely to be affordable housing because they are the less desirable sites, the sites that are either adjacent to a highway, adjacent to a subway, difficult geometry, a lot of rock, some sort of challenging situation, which thank you for the recognition that my firm and me personally are doing what architects are trained to do looking at these challenges and finding the opportunities.

 

So that's what we do. We often are faced with challenging sites that maybe are right near infrastructure that is really adding to pollution and environmental degradation. So this idea of sustainable, affordable housing I think is really in our work translated into environmental justice, taking people who might normally live in these underserved communities that have this infrastructure and a real inequity for environmental considerations and trying to make that better. And one of the ways we do that is through Passive House.

 

00;08;13;21 - 00;08;20;04

DP

So let's dig in here and talk about our building. Tell us a little bit about 50 Nevins Street. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;08;20;06 - 00;10;13;14

JW

So one of our clients, ICL, which stands for Institute for Community Living, and they are a not for profit organization that does just tremendous, phenomenal work in the city, serving really at-risk underserved people in New York City. They owned this building. They purchased it in 1986. As you mentioned in the intro, it was originally designed as a YWCA as an SRO, a single room occupancy building.

 

So all the rooms were like single bedded rooms. There was a common cafeteria and kitchen and common bathing facilities. So it was like really stacking people in. And this was like an old model of housing people that was, you know, appropriate at a certain time in the city's history. But not really contemporary residential standards, what we would expect today.

 

So that was kind of the history of this building. You also mentioned the shaving off of the north end of the building, which actually we suspected that through some research, but we didn't really get it confirmed until we got into the building and started doing the demolition and saw, oh, this is where they replaced this column with a different type of steel that was in the original building.

 

It was riveted steel. In the new portion it was rolled sections. We'd see the back up wall or actually the composite wall. And the original building was all brickwork. It was all bonded brick wall in the new building in the modified part that happened when they widened the street, it became a terracotta block back up with then the finished brick in front, the window details were different. So it was actually really interesting to have that kind of confirmation and see it once the demo all happened. The building has this legacy of being modified and I think serving the greater good, the widening of the street and the shaving off of 20 feet of the building was done so that there would be this greater public amenity of the subway station that would be improve the life of all New Yorkers.

 

00;10;13;16 - 00;10;18;24

DP

Yeah, interesting. It's all related. So what was the building next to your building?

 

00;10;18;27 - 00;11;33;13

JW

The building next to our building was a recently constructed hotel, which was a very different building type, superstructure type construction techniques, and much taller than the existing building as well. So it was a really dominating presence. So one of the things that we tried to do and I think we were pretty successful is kind of mitigate that presence.

 

It was just to the west of our site. But yeah, we wanted to kind of bridge that more contemporary with the traditional classic building that was retained on the site. The strategy that we employed for the redevelopment was to expand the building both vertically and horizontally. The horizontal piece was easy. You just, you know, you build next to the building.

 

There was a parking lot. Basically a service area for the existing building, which is, you know, very handsome pre-war building. But that pre-war building kind of vintage came with a lot of burdens or a lot of legacy issues that made the building more difficult to use as a contemporary building that needed to be handicapped accessible.

 

The systems were out of date really at the end of their service life. So we had to do some major kind of heroic things to this existing building to keep it.

 

00;11;33;13 - 00;11;34;14

DP

And you wanted to keep it?

 

00;11;34;21 - 00;12;03;18

JW

Yeah, absolutely. It was such a handsome building also, I've mentioned sustainable design, but one of the most sustainable things that you can do if you're doing a project is to keep an existing building, keep the shell, keep as much as you can. Now, obviously, you've got to like do some demolition and throw some materials away. But if you can keep that building out of the landfill, keep that building from having to be shipped to the landfill and all the energy that goes into that retaining that energy that was originally used to build the building, that's one of the most sustainable things that you can do of all.

 

00;12;03;24 - 00;12;06;09

DP

So tell me, is the subway system still there?

 

00;12;06;11 - 00;12;21;03

JW

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. We don't quite feel it rumbling in the building when it goes by, but there were some really special supportive excavation considerations that we had to do. We had to be really concerned about settlement. So there was a lot of thought put into the foundations of this building.

 

00;12;21;03 - 00;12;22;27

DP

Yeah, the new foundations.

 

00;12;23;00 - 00;13;57;28

JW

So the new foundations were complicated. The existing building foundations were also complicated. When we did this vertical expansion above the existing building, I mentioned earlier the term heroic, and it really was heroic. I mean, when I look back on this, I think, Oh my God, what was I thinking? And we actually convinced somebody to do this. We convinced a contractor to do this.

 

We convinced our client, which, you know, there are great clients. I don't want to make it sound like I've deceived them, but it was a really courageous project to both undertake by all parties. In the existing building we built above, there was additional load that we were superimposing on the existing superstructure in that building. We had to brace one of the columns so that we could lower the footing and increase the size of the footing.

 

And the way we did that was and when I say we, I mean it's really the contractor that did this. We came up with the concept, but they executed it. There was a huge beam that was spanned from one column to another that supported this column temporarily, that we were going to lower the footing on, and they jacked that beam up and supported that column so that the existing footing that was undersized could be pulled out, excavated further down, and then a new footing could be introduced and an extension of the column.

 

So gutsy acrobatics to do this. And the way they tested whether that beam, a temporary beam that was put in, whether it separated the footing from the column, was they took a piece of paper and they slipped it between the footing and the base plate of the column to see if it was actually separated. So they wanted to test that to make sure there was daylight before they pulled out that existing footing. Phenomenal construction sequencing and logistics. It was a gutsy project I'm very proud of.

 

00;13;58;01 - 00;14;00;21

DP

So what were the project restrictions like for you guys?

 

00;14;00;26 - 00;15;33;11

JW

So there were a couple of restrictions. When we first started looking at this, we wanted to increase the density of the project because it was a rare kind of once in a building's lifetime opportunity to increase the amount of affordable and supportive housing that could be provided in downtown Brooklyn. So our client ICL, knew that this was kind of their one chance.

 

So we looked at a couple ideas, a couple of options, and to get to 129 units, we had to bend, maybe break the rules of the New York City zoning resolution. And the way you do that is you go through something called a ULURP. It's a process that involves community engagement. It involves talking to city planning, New York City city planning departments, and doing something that is not as of right.

 

The current zoning resolution and building code allow you to build certain things. As long as you get approval from the Department of Buildings, you can build those. But we needed to bend the rules here or break the rules to make this actually happen. So we went to the various city agencies, went to community boards and made this proposal to expand the building vertically, to increase the floor area ratio, the amount of floor area that you can build on the site.

 

And we were successful in that because I think a lot of these stakeholders recognized that this project was going to really make a difference to so many people's lives and be a community asset. So normally we've all heard the term NIMBY, not in my backyard. Normally. That's one of the things that we bought up against when we do these types of projects and there was some of that, but I think it was much more toned down because people recognized the benefit of this project.

 

00;15;33;18 - 00;15;37;18

DP

So did you guys have the building completely designed when you went to the people?

 

00;15;37;21 - 00;15;48;12

JW

No. We had the vision. We kind of had a good idea how many units were going to go into the building. We knew what the program was going to be. We had some of the renderings completed because that's really important to making that pitch to stakeholders.

 

00;15;48;18 - 00;15;51;24

DP

What about height requirements for you guys? What limited you?

 

00;15;52;00 - 00;16;15;09

JW

I'm going to try not to get too much into the weeds and the zoning resolution, but this is it actually falls into a limited height district in downtown Brooklyn, which we adhered to, but we needed the increased floor area. The height was somewhat limiting, but there were other limitations on the building as well. We could only add so many floors onto the existing building before we kind of maxed out on what we could really feasibly do with the existing foundations and the existing superstructure.

 

00;16;15;11 - 00;16;24;13

DP

So let's talk a little bit about the building plan. So the existing building is like a long rectangle. So what did you guys do with your additions?

 

00;16;24;15 - 00;17;55;23

JW

So one of the really critical things for affordable housing in most housing, all housing is efficiency. And the efficiency was really driven by the desire to maximize the number of units that we could put here so we could serve the most people. So we looked at that rectangle and where the opportunity was to expand the building horizontal lean and located our cores, our elevator and our stairs in a spot that worked best for that, and then really started to figure out where the best units would be located, where the best apartment layouts would be. In the existing building, it was actually a challenge. We were not going to change the fenestration where the windows are located or the size of the windows. So that really dictated a lot of the apartment placements and the size. New York City has something called light and air requirements for the apartments, you need to have a certain size window for a certain size room, and you can't go below that for both light daylight and ventilation.

 

So the existing building’s layout was determined largely not completely, but largely by the existing fenestration layout. And then we had more flexibility in the new building portion, but that was also a challenge because it was a very limited floor plates and it really had to integrate with the existing building. We had corridors that we had to figure out.

 

We placed the elevator in the inside corner where the two buildings meet, because that's a place where you can't really put apartments because there's no windows there. So I think we were pretty clever about putting all the, like, fundamentals and figuring out how the floor plan would come together.

 

00;17;55;25 - 00;18;01;04

DP

How did the apartment sizes compare from the old building to the new building? Are they exactly the same?

 

00;18;01;06 - 00;18;57;09

JW

No, it is dramatically different. The original SRO, the single room occupancy, I mean, the rooms were eight feet wide, ten feet deep. So really puny and not in any way contemporary or fair housing model for the residents that were going to come back. So we basically blew out all those interior partitions and relaid out the building interiors.

 

The original building was actually a double loaded corridor. And when I said below the corridor, I mean there's a hallway down the middle and it's got apartments on either side, fairly efficient way to do it. But it was such a narrow building and the site is so narrow that when we redid the building in this more contemporary model of apartments, we couldn't fit a double loaded corridor in there.

 

So it's really a single loaded corridor in the existing building. In the new building, we had more flexibility in the site dimension, so we were able to do a double loaded corridor in that portion. But it was, yeah, a real challenge to adapt the existing building. But as I said, you know, it's one of the most sustainable things you can do.

 

00;18;57;16 - 00;19;01;06

DP

Are the apartments a lot larger in the new building and the windows taller?

 

00;19;01;12 - 00;20;38;07

JW

I would say in the new building, no, they're not significantly larger. They're just kind of what they are. I think the windows are maybe a little bit taller, certainly wider. We wanted to have some affinity between the two buildings. We didn't want to have like completely different fenestration sizes, which really I think would be inequitable to the people who would move into this building.

 

But we did in many ways, we made the new building distinct from the existing building. You go around New York City or any other city that's been around for a while and you see these buildings that are historic and have been adapted. You know, there's a couple of ways you can do it. You can either be matchy matchy about it and try to replicate in new construction and new materials a very similar thing.

 

And that's usually pretty apparent. It's never seamless, even if you could make it perfectly matching, I just don't think that's genuine. I don't think it's a truthful representation of where we are in the construction and it's not necessary. There may be times when it's merited, but it shouldn't be your knee jerk reaction. It shouldn't be the starting point.

 

So one way is to be absolutely seamless about it. One is to put a cap on top of the building. But we wanted to make this building really tell a story about the history of it. So we basically wrapped this new piece of contemporary construction up in around the existing building and allowed it to kind of finish off the existing building.

 

You mentioned earlier some of the adaptations that have happened to the building that I think really compromised the original integrity of the design, the symmetry and the way the building ended. So I think we kind of rectified that with this new construction that comes over the top and helps finish the building in a way that I think looks more appropriate.

 

00;20;38;12 - 00;20;42;27

DP

So tell me about the cornice on the existing building. Is that new or was that there?

 

00;20;43;02 - 00;20;51;14

JW

That's actually a really interesting question. The cornice we thought from the street level. Oh, that's the original cornice. It looks very detailed and looks contemporary on the building.

 

00;20;51;16 - 00;20;52;11

DP

It's gigantic.

 

00;20;52;11 - 00;21;05;12

JW

It's gigantic. Yeah, it's probably four feet tall and overhangs three feet. It's yeah, it's enormous. But we got up there and when we started to do that demolition that I mentioned earlier, it's made of fiberglass. So it was actually done some time, I think in the…

 

00;21;05;12 - 00;21;06;06

DP

Sixties or so?

 

00;21;06;06 - 00;21;27;27

JW

I think it was actually in the eighties. I think after ICL originally bought the building, they did a couple modifications to make it better suit their needs, not to the extent that we'd most recently renovated, but they, I think, replaced the existing cornice with a fiberglass one. The fiberglass one is in great shape. We kept it. We like took it off where we had to for construction sequencing and logistics, but then put the thing back and just re-caulked it. It's done now.

 

00;21;27;28 - 00;21;40;09

DP

But it's a great cap to the existing building and it really sets the two buildings apart. And when you look at the additions, it all kind of makes sense. And that cornice I think does a lot to do that.

 

00;21;40;14 - 00;21;53;23

JW

Yeah, it's a very formal gesture, that retaining it and then allowing that to be part of this kind of bridge. In this reveal that you also mentioned earlier, the reveal is very intentional to help make that separation very visible and legible.

 

00;21;53;29 - 00;22;01;25

DP

So did you guys have to make many structural changes to the existing building? You gutted it and it's steel? On the interior?

 

00;22;01;25 - 00;22;06;18

JW

Steel frames, multi exterior wall. We did do window replacements.

 

00;22;06;20 - 00;22;08;26

DP

Changed the way the walls are insulated?

 

00;22;08;29 - 00;23;14;11

JW

We did, yeah. We did a spray-on insulation. I know there's some critique of spray on insulation, but it really was the right material for this because it gave us our vapor barrier and our improved insulation all in one shot. But yeah, we did that on the inside of the building. One of the principles of Passive House, which is a system to really decrease the building's energy requirements, you significantly drive down the energy loads in a building using the system.

 

And the way you do that is a high performance building exterior. That's one of the strategies, is you make a high performance building exterior, which is both your windows and your insulation and your continuity of the insulation and your air vapor barrier. So in historic buildings you're somewhat limited with what you can do with that continuous insulation because you've got your slabs coming in, the slabs are buried on the exterior wall or the steel, but there's thermal bridges that just can't be avoided in these buildings of this timeframe.

 

But we did the best we could. And on balance, with the insulation on the inside and the new building’s envelope, we were able to get a building that could easily comply with the energy code. So yeah, we had to insulate the existing buildings walls and that's how we dealt with that.

 

00;23;14;18 - 00;23;22;17

DP

You guys had to replace some of the existing brick. So talk a little bit about that and then tell us what kind of brick you used on the new addition.

 

00;23;22;20 - 00;24;41;25

JW

Sure. Yeah. The existing brick, we had to undo some sins of the past at lintels the repairs that were done previously. Not quite sure when they were done with maybe a little bit less sensitivity to matching the brick and the mortar. So that was some of the repair work that we did at the existing building. The existing building also has a base, a very formal base.

 

It's a very classical design to have that base. So we wanted to, that was another one of these affinity points that we wanted with the new building. So we created this base, which was a dark grounding brick that's a Glen-Gery product, it's a Black Hills velour. The velour is the finish on the brick. So that kind of established the base of the building.

 

Then above that, we did a much lighter, more contemporary brick, also a Glen-Gery product, White Plains velour. Again, the velour is the finish of the texture of the face of the brick, and we did similar coursing, the mortar is very different. The mortar in the White Plains is its own mortar. The existing buildings, mortar repairs were their own mortar, so they would match that building's texture and coloration.

 

But through a combination of the same brick size, the same coursing, and also picking up on that limestone detailing that's in the existing building we did kind of create this affinity between the two buildings. So they're definitely distinct from each other, but they're also kind of of a family.

 

00;24;42;01 - 00;24;48;23

DP

Yeah, it's a nice touch. It ties the two buildings together. So how long did this whole process take from beginning to end?

 

00;24;48;25 - 00;26;00;29

JW

That is a good question. So the ULURP is something that you don't normally undertake. The ULURP is a discretionary approval process, so that added about a year to the design time. So I would say it took about 18 months to design the building, and the construction of it was also really complicated. It took, I think, 30 months to build it, and that included demolition, it included the excavation, and a global pandemic.

 

So it was one of these projects where, you know, we had to figure out how to do this, how to work remotely, work with the contractor, with all these site safety considerations. So we were fortunate enough that in the city there was a program that allowed for affordable housing to proceed. So it was told to the Department of Buildings that this is an affordable housing project and they give you a special permit that you post on the construction barricade.

 

And that allowed us to proceed. Now, it doesn't mean that we could proceed business as usual. Before the pandemic, there were all sorts of hand-washing stations and protocols for staff to be, you know, separate. And we would show up on site, we'd have masks, we wouldn't walk between crowds of people. So the fact that it got done in two and a half years is kind of a real testament to the partnership between ICL, the contract and the design team.

 

00;26;01;05 - 00;26;21;21

DP

So you'd mentioned the unique construction detail with this steel column that you guys had to alter the foundation for. What about some of the masonry on the exterior? Were there any unique construction details that you guys had to come up with? For example, for the connector, how did you guys end up doing that? I mean, is it all pretty straightforward?

 

00;26;21;23 - 00;27;03;24

JW

Well, yeah, I guess straightforward is a real simplification of what's involved. But yeah, we had to figure out where the steel was going to go, where we were going to break that new steel versus the existing steel. There's got to be some tolerances for movement and construction tolerances. That bridge was really made through that recessed metal reveal that you see separating the two buildings.

 

So we made it easier on ourselves by doing it in that different material that allowed for a lot of tolerance. It could be pushed back 18 inches and if, you know, was 16 inches in one place and a little bit different on the other side, you couldn't really tell because it was a very different material. So I think we're smart about making our lives in the contractors' lives a little bit easier.

 

00;27;04;01 - 00;27;08;11

DP

And how does the new additions touch the building next to it?

 

00;27;08;11 - 00;27;12;07

JW

There is a seismic joint.

 

00;27;12;07 - 00;27;13;06

DP

Really? Is that pretty typical?

 

00;27;13;06 - 00;27;41;21

JW

It's pretty typical, yeah. And it's based upon the various heights of the building. For every 50 feet it's one inch. So I think we had a setback from the property line three inches because we were just over 100 feet. So for every 50 feet you got one inch. So if you're 110, you got three inches. So we had something called an MCO joint, which is just a squishy finished joint that you kind of stuffy in after everything else is up and constructed. And that allows for any sort of seismic movement in case there's an earthquake.

 

00;27;41;23 - 00;27;45;28

DP

So tell me a little bit about the Enterprise Green Communities Program.

 

00;27;46;00 - 00;31;03;17

JW

It is a program that any affordable housing project that is going to be using public funds needs to adhere to. It's a little bit like LEED, LEED is a very broad system. So Enterprise and LEED are broad. They talk about community connected communities, recycled materials, water usage, energy usage, healthy interior environments. So that system is really helpful and I think it helps there be a consistency through all of the affordable housing that's being built now that there is this level of sustainability that is not only about carbon, it's about water, it's about interior indoor air quality.

 

So that's a really important system. The Passive House system that I've touched on a little bit earlier takes one piece of that, the energy piece of it and really ramps it up. So Passive House is about investing in that building exterior. You have a high quality envelope with continuous insulation, continuous air barrier that allows for very little air to come in or out of the building.

 

And that continuity is also part of the windows. And the windows are usually high performance windows that are either triple glazed or just high performance glazing. And what that really allows the envelope of the building to do is to be almost like a winter jacket. I think a good analogy aside from the winter jacket analogy, is like a thermos, an insulated cup versus just the standard deli coffee cup.

 

Your deli coffee cup is going to lose the heat in the coffee pretty quickly. If you've got the thermos, it's going to retain that heat for a lot longer. So what that allows you to do in the building is retain interior internal heat gains. And the internal heat gains are lighting, appliances, people occupying the space. So those internal heat gains that you can gain passively and retain in the building allow you to really drive down those heating loads in the building.

 

So in a building built in New York City, similar to 50 Nevins on its scale and its size and its number of occupants, you can heat the apartment with a hand dryer, so you really drive down those heating loads. You've got to cool the building too. So that high performance envelope also helps keep that cooled air, that energy that's invested in the air, keep that inside the building.

 

It's not leaking outside the building. You're not getting hot, humid air bleeding into the building when you're exhausting the bathrooms and the kitchen. So Passive House is really taking the energy component of any affordable housing building and really ramping up the stakes and making it a much more high performance building. There's more to it than that. The mechanical systems need to be designed and balanced for that.

 

There's domestic hot water that needs to be taken into consideration, but it's an area of practice that we are really pushing for and advocating with our clients for not only just being democratic and equitable for the buildings and the environments that they're often located in, but there's also regulatory pressures that are coming down the pike. There's something called Local Law 97, which is going to fine buildings if they don't have certain energy performance, if they emit too many emissions, whether it's carbon or sulfur dioxide or whatever, there's metrics for buildings of certain types and their sizes. And if you are not meeting those standards, there's going to be penalties to pay.

 

00;31;03;19 - 00;31;04;26

DP

So that's coming down the pike.

 

00;31;04;26 - 00;31;42;01

JW

That's coming down the pike. I think 2025 is the first threshold or maybe it's 2026. But we're designing buildings now that are going to take a year to design, two years to build. So by the time they're operational, we're in Local Law 97. So we're advising clients to not put your heads in the sand on this. You know, a lot of people aren't doing this.

 

The intense heat that we've been feeling, the wildfires in Canada, the fires and migration, we're starting to see the stuff hit the fan. So our clients are reading the writing on the wall. Local Law 97. There is a Local Law 154 that's banning gas usage.

 

00;31;42;04 - 00;31;43;20

DP

Natural gas.

 

00;31;43;20 - 00;31;53;10

JW

Yeah, natural gas. And you've actually done something that I want to check you on. Yeah, sure. It's natural gas, but who told you it's natural gas? It's fossil gas. The idea of that, it's natural. Okay.

 

00;31;53;10 - 00;31;55;02

DP

I was distinguishing from propane.

 

00;31;55;06 - 00;32;17;11

JW

Okay, well, it's kind of all the same stuff. It's all carbon that goes into the atmosphere and affects our climate. So I don't mean to be a jerk about it. And I find myself kind of being programmed by certain, you know, sales pitches and how they want you to perceive these things. So, yes, there's a natural gas ban, however nice you want to say it. So there's all these regulatory pressures.

 

00;32;17;11 - 00;32;20;23

DP

When you say local law. So this is New York State, New York City?

 

00;32;20;26 - 00;33;06;12

JW

Local law is just New York City. There's state legislation that's also banned gas fired equipment. And California's doing a similar thing. So it's amazing how much the landscape is shifting under our feet. There's a building in New York City not too far from where we are right now that was designed six or seven years ago. And one of the really innovative, cutting edge technologies that they used was to use a gas turbine to produce all of their electricity.

 

There was a cogen plant, so on the top of the building on the 73rd floor, they've got a gas turbine. And I believe it's also producing domestic hot water for the building's use, which seems, you know, at the time innovative, were going to be more independent. But I can't imagine trying to propose that sort of strategy now. So it's really amazing how much the landscape is shifting under our feet.

 

00;33;06;14 - 00;33;12;19

DP

So you've been an architect for 30 years. If you could give your younger self some career advice, what would it be?

 

00;33;12;21 - 00;33;55;23

JW

Knowing what I know now, I wish I would have been more thoughtful about sustainability and how important that is, because I think the decisions that we're making now, we're only really going to see the benefits of that or the implications or the results of that down the road and when I think about how much carbon has been put into the atmosphere since, like I think 1992, I think 50% of the carbon that's in the atmosphere was produced I think since the nineties. So it's not climate change, global warming. It's often thought about as something that's occurred in over a century. And a lot of the legacy emissions were from the beginning of the industrial revolution, but it's really not the case. It's really in this compressed time frame that's in the last 30, 40 or 50 years.

 

00;33;55;25 - 00;34;02;22

DP

John, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where could people go to learn more about Dattner Architects in New York City and yourself?

 

00;34;02;25 - 00;34;18;20

JW

It's really easy. We've got a website, Dattner.com, I think we have a good representation of our work there. You'll see that all of our work is basically in the city and we can ride the subway to get to our site. So it's a pleasure to have spoken to you today and glad to be able to share some of my experience.

 

00;34;18;23

DP

Thank you very much and great to have you here

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;16

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;19 - 00;00;34;08

Todd Poisson (TP)

They wanted to expand the building, and a vertical expansion is taboo for individual landmarks. So, in order to get them any significant square footage additions up there, we wanted to go bold. Why not propose a more robust, bold roof scape? And given the history of Chief Tamanend being the namesake of Tammany and with this desire to really honor the Lenape, why not be inspired by the Lenape's origin story of a rising turtle coming out of the water, shedding water?

 

00;00;34;11 - 00;03;33;28

DP

This is my guest, Todd Poisson. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we’ll highlight Todd's project, 44 Union Square.

44 Union Square sits at the northeast corner of Union Square Park in Manhattan. The project includes a remarkable contemporary steel and glass dome addition to the storied landmark building on Union Square's northeast corner for Redding International Ink.

The new building expands the usable square footage of the historic building and adds an iconic anchor to Union Square. The building's former life was as the last headquarters for the political machine, Tammany Hall, an American organization founded in 1786, famous for controlling New York City and state politics for a time.

The restoration and expansion of the building includes preserving two facades, new bronze storefronts in the likeness of the original 1928 design and a three-story rooftop addition. This wild steel and glass building cap is composed of a self-supporting free form shell grid dome atop a reconstructed hipped roof with gray terracotta sunshades.

If you're wondering, the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission unanimously approved this incredibly creative design.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

Today we're talking to Todd Poisson. Todd received his Bachelor of Architecture degree from Cornell University. He became a partner at BKSK in 2007 and has over 30 years of experience in the architecture profession. Todd has been responsible for the design and construction of some of the firm's most ambitious projects, ranging between residential mixed use and institutional works. Recent award-winning projects include the Gansevoort Row redevelopment for Aurora Capital and 44 Union Square, which we'll discuss today.

Other notable recent projects of Todd's are 200 East 21st Street, a 20 story, highly sustainable residential tower in Gramercy for Alpha Development and 470 Columbus, a passive house, multifamily development on the Upper West Side for the Rowe Corporation. Todd is currently a volunteer with the American Youth Soccer Organization and a long-term coach of regional athletic leagues.

In addition, Todd is a lecturer and volunteer interviewer for Cornell University's College of Architecture, Art, and Planning. So welcome, Todd. Nice to have you with us today.

We're going to talk about 44 Union Square. But before we do, I should mention that we recently interviewed one of Todd's peers at BKSK, David Kubik. He told us a bit about the firm. But for those who haven't listened to that episode, tell us a little bit about BKSK in New York City. Where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;34;01 - 00;04;31;07

TP

Sure. So, thank you for having me. BKSK Architects is headquartered in New York City in Manhattan, not too far away from your center here on West 38th Street in the garment center of Manhattan. We've been in business since 1985 celebrating 38 years. David and I are kind of second-generation partners. We've been in business about 38 years. We have over 200 built projects. David and I both joined the firm about 20 years ago plus and were made partners about the same time.

BKSK specializes in many things. We like to say if you know New York, you know our work. Our work is kind of separated between, generally speaking, cultural, institutional work, libraries, religious structures, parks, and commercial buildings and residential buildings. Residential projects ranging from new condominium buildings, towers or private residential projects, combining units or renovating someone's home.

 

00;04;31;10 - 00;04;34;01

DP

Do you guys do residential projects outside of New York City?

 

00;04;34;07 - 00;04;45;21

TP

We do. In fact, we have a little annex office out in Oklahoma City that we had so much Midwest work. Now we have private residential projects, upstate New York and in Connecticut and in New Jersey.

 

00;04;45;23 - 00;04;53;11

DP

So, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you end up at BKSK? How long have you been there – I believe you just said that. What's your role in the office?

 

00;04;53;13 - 00;05;49;13

TP

Well, I joined back in 1998. So, 25 years ago I answered a New York Times wanted ad – remember those, actually where you had to get the newspaper Saturday, the Sunday paper? You got to subscribe to get them a day early to rifle through the want ads. And I answered a want ad for a project manager at an architecture firm called Burns, Kendall, Schieferdecker, with this crazy name. I thought it was a law firm. Back then there was no websites. You couldn't look up the firms. You had to go to these places, and you'd open the front door and you'd be disappointed but had to sit through the interviews to see what kind of work they did.

But the moment I met George Schieferdecker – he interviewed me 25 years ago, he's still there, one of the founding partners – knew immediately that I had found the mothership. You know, these guys knew each other from school way back. They were so intellectual. They all had lives outside the office. This was not a sweatshop kind of architecture firm that one sometimes encounters. And I've just had just a great time with them.

 

00;05;49;16 - 00;06;05;23

DP

It's funny, when you were saying that, all these awful memories started flooding in of making one phone call after another and going through the phone book and then showing up and knowing nothing about the work of that architect, and endless interviews. So where were you working before BKSK?

 

00;06;05;25 - 00;06;23;21

TP

I was here in Manhattan already. I was working for Stephen Jacobs Group, an architect who specialized, at the time, in new construction residential work. So, I really cut my teeth as a young architect in the field, hardcore development construction experience in Manhattan, which has paid off a great deal.

 

00;06;23;24 - 00;06;28;20

DP

So now you're partners. So, what's your role like now? Has it changed significantly?

 

00;06;28;22 - 00;07;48;02

TP

Sure. So over time, our roles change as partners as we grow in the firm. David and I and Julie Nelson, the other second-generation partner. Julie, David, and I really grew up there and our roles have evolved from being in the trenches and drawing every line and every detail for projects that get built. Lucky for us, our sites tend to be in Manhattan.

We're also a little bit regional. We have some work in New Jersey and Philadelphia and Connecticut, but still about 80% in Manhattan. So, we are very lucky. We could visit sites very easily to get hands on experience. And so, our roles really evolved quickly into project management, into client facing roles, consultant coordination, field work. When we were promoted to partners, our roles shift gradually into more finding work, finding new work, finding repeat clients, developing those relationships to continue getting new projects, setting the design direction for new projects, and then just kind of being the face of the project.

We pride ourselves to being involved with every phase of design as partners. We don't just disappear after landing a new project. We really stay involved in the trenches at meetings. I just came from a mechanical coordination meeting for a new hotel project we're doing. I really love that stuff. I really love the details – love the field work as well as the design and the client facing opportunities.

 

00;07;48;04 - 00;07;51;00

DP

I'm curious how big was BKSK when you joined them?

 

00;07;51;07 - 00;07;54;08

TP

So, they were about 15 people, I think, in 1998.

 

00;07;54;12 - 00;07;55;15

DP

And now you're 50.

 

00;07;55;15 - 00;07;57;19

TP

We're about 50, 52 people. Yes.

 

00;07;57;26 - 00;08;03;24

DP

Interesting. I love the field stuff, too. I love the people stuff. It's just the best part of the job.

 

00;08;03;26 - 00;08;21;19

TP

The soap opera arcs during it, like a seven, eight year project are just terrific. We refer to them at project meetings or say previously on this project in season two, you might recall that the elevator consultant said the opposite of what you just said. Like years later, it's a way to keep things light at these construction meetings.

 

00;08;21;23 - 00;08;22;20

DP

That is really funny.

 

00;08;23;04 - 00;08;43;02

TP

We try to keep it light and funny, and the construction industry has changed a great deal, as you could imagine, along with everything else. But in the last 35 years since I've been working, you know, sites are tech savvy. It seems to be it's a much more civilized kind of operation, and there's opportunities to really develop great relationships with the builders and consultants.

 

00;08;43;09 - 00;08;50;28

DP

Great insight. Totally true. So, let's dig in here and talk about the building. Tell us about 44 Union Square. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;08;51;00 - 00;17;44;06

TP

So back in 2012, the phone rang. It was Michael Buckley calling from Edifice Real Estate Partners. He invited us – because of our strength of our record of getting very challenging approvals through the Landmark Commission of New York City – invited us to join, I think it was a group of five firms that competed in a competition that lasted a month of design work, and then we each presented our work to the owner, Margaret Cotter of Redding International that month.

The design happened to coincide with when Hurricane Sandy hit Manhattan. So, our office, like many offices in Lower Manhattan, lost power. So, I brought the competition work home with me, and at the time I had a five-year-old daughter, and she sat in my lap, and we drew together. It really resonates with me to this day because fast forward ten years and there we were finishing the project during a global pandemic where we all had to work from home again. So, this project really bookended two kind of catastrophes in New York City, starting with Hurricane Sandy, working from home and then ending with the pandemic and closing out the project in 2020, using my daughter's big scooter to scoot down to Union Square. During the height of the pandemic, as work was finishing up.

So anyway, Michael invited BKSK to join this limited design competition. I dived into the history of the building. We're all students of history. We feel that every project, even if it's not a landmark project, has its history, has context to learn from. And immediately I learned the story of Tammany Hall that was different from what we're all taught in school, at least in the Northeast. We're taught that Tammany Hall is synonymous with greed and corruption and graft. And while that's all true, Tammany Hall is not named after an Irish politician of the 19th century, which you might think given the Boss Tweed stories and the background of Tammany Hall, that's in the social conscious. But in fact, the namesake of Tammany Hall is an indigenous 17th century chief, Chief Tamanend of the Lenape, who signed a peaceful coexistence treaty with William Penn in 1680, an event that's documented in our Capitol's rotunda in Washington, DC, rules that really held in place for quite some time.

Chief Tamanend was revered and legendary to the European settlers as a native representative who welcomed visitors and who wanted to listen to all voices. And listening to all voices became kind of the theme of these early social clubs, which became known as Tammany Societies. We were surprised to learn that there were dozens of these Tammany societies that dotted the East Coast from New York to Cleveland in the early days of the Republic, and I think they even predated the revolution. I think they, maybe, formalized themselves after the revolution, but the clubhouses began even before the American Revolution, where people joined and sat around talking about what ideals the New Republic should represent. And they chose Chief Tamanend to represent them as a symbol of listening to all voices. Over the centuries that story was lost. The only Tammany society to make it into the 20th century was ours here in New York, only to become known for craft, greed and corruption.

So right from the beginning we thought it was an opportunity to rebrand the building in Chief Tamanend’s name – kind of erase this idea that Tammany is associated with just greed and corruption, but is associated with the indigenous population of North America, of the Northeast, especially of the Lenape. Given that background, looking at this Neo-Georgian red brick and limestone building at the corner Union Square, which was designed originally to emulate Federal Hall downtown. Federal Hall is where George Washington was inaugurated on the balcony. Federal Hall was demolished in 1812, but it looked like Tammany Hall does today, except Federal Hall had a much more robust roof line, had a big hipped roof and a cupola, whereas Tammany Hall and Union Square chose the architects Thompson, Holmes, and Converse out of Philadelphia in 1928 – chose to replicate the federal Hall facade quite literally, but they gave Tammany Hall here in Union Square a much more tepid roof.

And so, the thought was, given the brief from Edifice for Redding International, they wanted to expand the building, they wanted to rebrand the building, but they knew it was a landmark. They knew it was an individual New York City landmark. So, demolition was out of the question. And a vertical expansion is taboo for individual landmarks. Typically, the New York City Landmarks Commission approves maybe a handful each year, but they're very difficult to convince the commission that it's an appropriate addition to the base landmark. Union Square is such a vast public space that we knew immediately that even if you put like a shampoo bottle on top of the roof, it would be seen from across the square. So, in order to get them any significant square footage addition up there, we wanted to go bold. We felt that, given this Neo-Georgian base that used to have or was modeled after a building that had a bigger roof, why not propose a more robust, bold roof scape?

So, the question is what form should that take? And given the history of Chief Tamanend being the namesake of Tammany, and with this desire to really honor the Lenape, why not be inspired by the Lenape’s origin story of a giant turtle rising from the sea, creating land to give this Neo-Georgian building the dome that it would have, could have, should have had if Tammany Hall perhaps was more honest with its intentions in 1928, when Thompson, Holmes, and Converse designed this building, which really cloaked them in kind of quasi-governmental garb at this very federal style red brick and limestone building with a pediment, portico, but a tepid roof.

So, we decided to model a very contemporary glass and steel dome modeled after a rising turtle coming out of the water, shedding water as the kind of volume to hold, to house three additional floors. And the landmarks, as you mentioned, Landmarks Commission unanimously approved it. We only had to go back once to tweak the height of the dome and some of the details.

The dome kind of erupts from a reconstructed hip roof. So, we removed the slate hip roof and recreated it in the same inclined plane with terracotta sunshades that intermittently cover the beginning of the glass and steel dome. So, the glass and steel dome starts off as in the form of a hip roof, but then quickly transforms into this parametric shell that looks like classically proportioned when one stands in front of it in Union Square. Looks like any other dome on a classic building, in terms of its proportion. But when one turns the corner and looks more obliquely on it, its organic source kind of becomes more apparent. You kind of sense something is going on there and it's turtle like as it faces north over this arched pediment that was top of the Tammany Hall's balustrade in the middle of the East 17th Street North facade.

 

The original building had this odd arch pediment that was kind of just vertically cantilever in there. We didn't quite realize what it was until we looked more into the history of Tammany Hall. And sure enough, they used to – before this building was built in 1928 – they occupied a clubhouse on East 14th Street down at the other corner of Union Square. And on top of that building is a giant arched, decorative element with, in fact, a 15-foot-tall statue of Chief Tamanend. That building was demolished for ConEd’s expansion in the 1920s, and that's what spurred Tammany Hall to move to this location on the northeast corner of Union Square. Chief Tamanend is only recalled on our facade in 1928 with a headshot, a limestone medallion that faces, on the north facade, over what was Tammany Hall's front door. So, the classical portico facade that faces Union Square was really always a commercial facade. The ground floor was always a retail store location. In 1928 was a manufacturer's trust bank, for example. And now just last week, we celebrated the grand opening of Petco as the new national headquarters giant, 30,000 square foot new store in the ground floor cellar and second floor of the building.

So, it's still a retail presence. And then the upper floors are remodeled to be open office space. So Tammany Hall's front door used to be below that arched pediment facing northeast 17th Street and that's where we decided to kind of turn the turtle's head on the roof. So, the glass dome takes on a little bit more of a turtle-like form as it turns its head to give that arched pediment a little bit of a home. And we think it gives it a little bit more of a reason to exist than it ever did before. And it signals that that was Tammany's front door, once upon a time.

 

00;17;44;08 - 00;18;00;17

DP

Wow. Some great information. There's so much to talk about here, you know, it reminds me of - I'm still a big fan of Coop Himmelblau, it's far more organized, right – but it reminds me of that kind of approach to architecture. So, there were five entries. Did you see the entries?

 

00;18;00;23 - 00;18;39;25

TP

We never saw the other entries. We presented our work to Margaret at Redding, like December of 2012, after a bit of a delay because of Hurricane Sandy. We were awarded the project. It took about a year for contracts and everything to be negotiated to become their architect, but we were awarded the project so roughly late 2013. We brought it to the Landmarks Commission in, I believe in 2014. We received final building department and Landmarks approval in the following year or so, and then it took a few years to build. It was interrupted a bit by the pandemic, but we finished. Construction was finished in 2020.

 

00;18;39;28 - 00;18;42;16

DP

So, start to finish, how long was it then?

 

00;18;42;19 - 00;18;54;08

TP

From the day the phone rang in 2012 to 2020. So about eight years. We've stayed on call as the landlord's architect to help coordinate work for the tenants looking at space inside.

 

00;18;54;13 - 00;18;58;17

DP

And this was mostly a renovation project, but there was some new construction?

 

00;18;58;24 - 00;20;29;26

TP

So that's great that you ask that because it appears from a lot of photographs and even as you walk around it and even when you're in it, it's hard to realize that it's actually a new building behind the 100-year-old street walls. Everything was removed except the two street-facing walls. So, we think that's a real success, that people think it is a rooftop addition with maybe a little renovation inside, because that really was the intent to be as deferential and respectful of the historic landmark as possible. But, in fact, everything was removed. The historic masonry walls were decoupled from the structure. They were braced in place by tower braces that had their own foundation systems through the sidewalk, including through a giant vault that lines the 17th Street side that has a giant ConEd steam pipe running through it. So very complex coordination that the structural engineers at Thornton Tomasetti coordinated with our construction managers at CNY to develop this very intricate tower bracing system.

I should mention Buro Happold also as engineers of the project. So, the facades were decoupled from the structure. Everything was removed inside, including the foundation. A deeper foundation was dug to give the building a very deep cellar and six new stories. So, what was a three-story building with the little caretaker's apartment hidden behind the hipped roof at the front is now a 70,000 square foot class-A commercial building, growing from about 35,000 to begin with.

 

00;20;29;29 - 00;20;32;23

DP

So, you had to match the existing brick.

 

00;20;32;26 - 00;24;16;27

TP

So yes, finally we could talk about brick. Big part of the project was restoring those two street walls, the two 100-year-old historic street walls that are red brick and limestone, modeled after Federal Hall downtown. We researched the brick. Our design partners at Buro Happold gave us a roadmap – and the restoration contractors at Pullman – very detailed road map of the two street facades of which parts needed to be replaced. But remarkably, not a lot of the brick had to be removed. We did repoint 100% of the brick, meaning partially removing, breaking back the mortar joints and replacing the mortar. The front about three-quarters-inch of mortar on all the joints, but only replaced maybe about 15, 10%, maybe less of the brick.

The brick we found; we researched where the brick was in 1928. It was from the old Virginia brick company in Salem, Virginia. And we found an advertisement in 1929 after the building was completed, and they are bragging about their new building on Union Square, and they are linking it – as a Virginia company, they’re proud of this project for many reasons – but including the fact that Tammany Hall was linked to Thomas Jefferson's ideals and Thomas Jefferson, of course, is from Virginia and is famous for designing his home at Monticello. So, the old Virginia brick company has this advertisement that we found in the Archives of Public Library here in New York that they link the brick here at Tammany Hall to the brick used at Monticello. But if you read the fine print, it's not literally the same brick, it's not from the same kilns. They say it's, quote, “in the same size and made in the same kind of cherry and maple molds as those of Jefferson's beloved Monticello.” So even though Salem, Virginia, which is right next to Roanoke, Virginia, still is about, these days, even a two hour drive from Monticello, they wanted to connect themselves to the legacy of Thomas Jefferson with this new building for Tammany Hall, which was pretending to be or, you know, acting as a quasi-governmental building.

They were really a social agency too. We shouldn't forget that even though that they were known for terrible greed and corruption and fixed elections and did all kinds of bad stuff, they really operated as a social service organization for newly arrived immigrants here in New York City. So, they, however, used Lenape iconography in ways that weren't so appealing to us, from our point of view, looking back. They didn't care for the land of a people. They use their imagery. They used Chief Tamanend's name, but they didn't necessarily care for the Lenape people. And we wanted to reintroduce the Lenape authentic voice into this project. So early on, right after we won the competition, we reached out to the Lenape center here in Manhattan. We wanted to make sure that we weren't offending people by the use of Chief Tamanend’s clan's symbol of the rising turtle. We met with Joe Baker and Hadrien Coumans, some of the co-founders of the Lenape Center here in Manhattan, and they were thrilled. I was so relieved with their reaction when we showed them this design, a good ten years ago now. And they've been friends ever since. They've been great proponents of the project. They supported it through the regulatory process, writing letters to the Landmarks Commission, appearing with us side by side. So, they've been a great partner with this, and we've shared the design as it developed with them. So, we like to think of them as one of our collaborators in this project. It wasn't part of the brief, it wasn't part of the commercial real estate project, but we kind of thought it was very important to bring an authentic voice to this project from the Lenape point of view.

 

00;24;16;29 - 00;24;28;08

DP

So, we know that you guys had to match the existing brick out there. Was it challenging to find a brick that you could use, and what was that process? What did you ultimately go with?

 

00;24;28;10 - 00;25;50;02

TP

So, looking at the existing conditions of the brick walls, they were in remarkably good shape, considering it was 100-year-old building. We removed maybe five, ten percent of them. We used our construction manager partners at CNY, hired Pullman, incredibly talented folk at Pullman to restore the brick. They used, I think it was like a four-inch diameter grinder blade to remove the first, say, three quarters of an inch of mortar out of all the joints. 100% of the joints were repointed with mortar that we selected to match the original mortar.

The bricks themselves are an incredible mixture of Glen-Gery molded brick, and Heathcote, and spec sand DD-58, and Catawba, and a Roanoke Original. So that is all mixed in to create the dappled, dark red, velvety, rich red brick that are dappled with a very dark rowlock. Some of the rowlocks are very dark, so there's many bricks that are mixed into this, specifically chosen for each moment, each part of the facade that was being replaced. It's only about ten or twelve bricks at a time, in little clumps, that had to be replaced where there was a crack that was going through them. So that's how we restored the Flemish bond of the building. That bond of the landmark has a beautiful Flemish bond pattern to it that we restored.

 

00;25;50;05 - 00;26;02;13

DP

So, let's go back to the roof for a little bit. Was there any discussion internally when you were working on the design that it was just way too contemporary? This was not going to fly?

 

00;26;02;15 - 00;27;41;12

TP

Sure. So, we looked through history at examples of iconic, bold, contemporary rooftop additions onto landmark or historic structures. We looked at, specifically, for example, the Reichstag in Berlin. Lord Foster designed a striking, bold, contemporary glass dome onto the government building in Berlin. Of course, they lost their dome through war and bombing, and it was reconstructed in a contemporary fashion. But, interestingly enough the original Reichstag Dome did have glass in it. That's a fascinating case study for us.

We also looked at other freeform shell grid structures. That is the technical name for this structural system that can span over vast spaces without any vertical supports. So, the entire dome, the entire roof is not supported by any internal column or wall. It rests on new perimeter concrete walls that go all the way down to the new foundation. The loads are distributed down columns that are in between all the windows, in the historic facade, down to the new foundation in the cellar. So, we looked at Foster's courtyard cover at the British Museum, for example, that utilizes the same kind of system of freeform shell grid, which is also boldly, iconically, contemporary against a landmark base. The thought here was by restoring the base, by restoring all the brickwork and the limestone, we strengthen the landmark base in order to allow it to have a contrasting style on the roof, that the roof could be strikingly contemporary as long as we paid attention and were respectful to the restoration of the base.

 

00;27;41;14 - 00;27;55;03

DP

So, I read a little bit about the solar insulation, light infiltration. You were concerned glare clearly was going to be an issue. Could you elaborate on the probability studies you did investigating those elements and how they impacted design?

 

00;27;55;03 - 00;29;31;14

TP

Our partners at Buro Happold did fascinating studies with daylight. We directed them and wanted to make sure that we weren't going to cause reflection problems with this parabolic to other buildings. There are some case studies around the world of curved glass buildings causing problems to their neighbors, including there's one in London that focuses heat to the degree that it was causing fires on the sidewalk across the street. So, we certainly did not want to be known for that. So Buro Happold helped us study the probability of reflection on to the neighbors. We pinpointed the pieces of glass that would be the culprits – the whole selection process of the type of glass, with Buro Happold's help and all their studies – it was determined that a combination of tint and clear glass was the solution to inhibit reflection, but also to prevent too much solar heat gain and also to prevent too much internal glare.

So, from the outside, the glass appears a bit dark. On sunny days, it's reflective just enough to give it a shiny kind of silvery tone, and you can see the clouds, but it doesn't reflect rays of sunlight directly, like laser beams into the neighbors. And while you're on the inside, even though the glass on the outside has a darker appearance from the inside, your eyeballs adjust and it's all color corrected. Your eyes don't see dark. They see blue sky. They see the beautiful terracotta details of the neighboring historic buildings. It was, in the end, success of glass selection to inhibit all those potential problems.

 

00;29;31;16 - 00;29;40;17

DP

So, did your team learn anything interesting through the design and construction process doing something this unique? I would imagine you've never done a roof like this in the office before.

 

00;29;40;21 - 00;30;52;21

TP

We haven’t. It's our first freeform shell grid. It was New York's first freeform shell grid. There is a similar covering at Moynihan Train Hall to their barrel vaults, but they opened six months after we did, so we are happy to say, after an eight-year design process and construction, we kept saying we're going to be New York's first freeform shell grid. We're the first one to enclose internal space. I think there's a similar system that might be on some like entry canopies. There's one for like the seven-train extension to Hudson Yards and there's one out in Yonkers, but those do not enclose covered space and they're not nearly this large. So, we're proud to say we're New York's first freeform shell grid.

They use acres of this system in Asia and Europe. It's a very common system to span large swaths of space. It is used here in this country. For example, we visited the Smithsonian Institute down in Washington, DC. The Portrait Gallery has a courtyard cover that's similar to the British Museum cover. Foster came here and did kind of an encore for us in 2007 with the Smithsonian cover. We studied that system too, in terms of how it let light in, and in our studies of glare, etc..

 

00;30;52;24 - 00;31;05;21

DP

Yeah. What I find so interesting about the roof is that you could have simply created a typical Mansard roof and then added glass to the top. But the whole thing is glass, which is so unique.

 

00;31;05;21 - 00;31;52;26

TP

And a mansard roof, of an appropriate proportion, wouldn’t enclose nearly this much square footage. So, we wanted to get our client as much square footage as possible on top of this historic building. And it needed that extra oomph. The dome portion in the middle, which would never be able to be really enclosed by a mansard of any kind of historically accurate proportion. So that's what led us to both the form and the structure to enclose it, because the freeform shell grid is kind of the perfect device to span such great distances so the interior can be super flexible.

We built three floors within it, but those could be removed, they could be remodeled, they could be reconstructed to serve any purpose because all the loads from the roof system just go down the side perimeter walls.

 

00;31;53;02 - 00;32;18;06

DP

It's a great project for architecture students to look at in terms of learning how to develop an idea to make form, right. It's just so clear. And yet if you knew nothing about it, you just say, “Wow, they just put a glass dome on top.” But there's so much more to it that created so many unique details and so many beautiful things and facets, and I'm sure that space on the interior is wonderful.

 

00;32;18;09 - 00;32;25;04

TP

It's really terrific. There's opportunities to connect all three floors interconnecting and the possibilities are endless in there.

 

00;32;25;06 - 00;32;40;23

DP

So, you've obviously been an architect for quite some time, over 30 years. So, what career advice would you give your younger self, looking back after practicing for all this time? What have you learned? What's an idea that you've really locked on to that you'll never forget?

 

00;32;40;25 - 00;32;53;00

TP

One of the founding partners at BKSK, Joan Krevlin, said to me 25 years ago when I joined the - one of the things that she always kept with her as a young architect is do your job and tell the truth.

 

00;32;53;02 - 00;32;55;22

DP

What great advice! I love that!

 

00;32;55;29 - 00;33;42;02

TP

It's a great profession. And as you said, students of architecture have a great time in design studios. And this is a project that is really right out of studio in a way. I love showing it to students because like you said, it's super accessible in terms of the visuals, but it has a great connection to social history and the importance of context, the importance of research that you just don't come into a vacuum and design a building. You look at the context, you look at history, and you look at what you can learn from it. Because this could have been, like you said, just a flat top mansard roof. But discovering the history of the Lenape connection to this building was just remarkable and a great opportunity. I've met the Lenape Center folk. They've asked me to join their advisory steering committee. It's just been a wonderful experience.

 

00;33;42;04 - 00;34;03;22

DP

I love what you said. You don't just come into a vacuum and design a building. You don't. You don't. And that's what you learn in school. And hopefully you get to use that information, use that process, use that paradigm when you graduate, and you become a real architect. Right. So, Todd, it's been great to have you here. Thanks so much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about BKSK architects?

 

00;34;03;27 - 00;34;09;06

TP

We can be found at www.bksk.com

 

00;34;09;08 - 00;34;11;09

DP

Todd, it’s been great to have you, man. That was really cool.

 

00;34;11;25 - 00;34;16;12

TP

Thanks. This was really fun.