TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;10

DP (Doug Pat)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;12 - 00;00;33;19

JI (Jeremy Iannucci)

So the site's essentially just a rectangle. It's the size of a full city block. So the way that we've organized the buildings around the site is in this U-shape, where they start up in the northwest corner. Move around down West Street and then below, creating a U that opens up towards the water. We try to open up the view corridors from the building and leave as much view towards the water and towards the horizon from the rest of Greenpoint as we can.

 

00;00;33;22 - 00;02;07;13

DP

In this special series, we're unlocking some of the most powerful conversations we've had so far. We're connecting the dots, revealing hidden gems, and unearthing insights that might have slipped by. All to spark your next big idea with brick. Whether you're looking for fresh inspiration or innovative solutions, this series is designed to fuel your creativity. So let's dive in.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

 

Today we explore mixed use developments, a type of urban design that integrates multiple uses such as residential, commercial, cultural, institutional, and entertainment into one cohesive space. Mixed use projects aim to create vibrant, interconnected communities by physically and functionally blending these diverse components, often prioritizing pedestrian friendly environments. This bonus episode highlights three remarkable mixed use projects from past episodes, emphasizing insights from architects Jeremy Iannucci, John Zimmer, and Vincente Quiroga.

 

We'll explore the architectural design process, construction challenges and the thoughtful use of materials, particularly brickwork, to bring these complex developments to life.

 

Jeremy Iannucci discussed One Java, a residential project in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. This ambitious development balances sustainability, affordability and marketability with cutting edge features.

 

00;02;07;19 - 00;02;36;27

JI

The site's 200ft in the North south and then between West Street and the East River around 600ft, with 40ft reserved for a waterfront esplanade. We actually pulled back even a little bit further from that, and it's located right on the waterfront in Greenpoint. There was recently a rezoning that allowed for a whole redesign of the waterfront, and our project is one of the earlier projects in that redevelopment.

 

00;02;36;29 - 00;02;42;19

DP

So could you give us an idea of what the scope of the project is and the programmatic requirements?

 

00;02;42;26 - 00;03;03;06

JI

So it's a residential project of around 834 units, encompassing a total of around 800,000ft². This also comes with a series of amenity spaces, a series of retail spaces, as well as that waterfront park and also a collection of rooftop amenities in greenspace.

 

00;03;03;08 - 00;03;10;03

DP

So let's talk about the building design. Stylistically, were you guys borrowing from anything locally?

 

00;03;10;05 - 00;03;35;06

JI

We like to think that the entire project comes from the community around it. We looked at a series of precedents in the Greenpoint neighborhood historically, and Greenpoint specifically on the waterfront, to inspire the way that we detail these facades. We have a collection of different brick styles that help to break up the massing of the building, different articulations, as well as material bricks with the two precast towers.

 

00;03;35;08 - 00;03;40;11

DP

So what was on the site before you guys ended up building the new architecture?

 

00;03;40;13 - 00;04;04;25

JI

Previously, there was a two story warehouse on the site, and it really was kind of a beautiful space in its own right before. We got the chance to tour around, before it was demolished. And I think walking around really inspired us just with these qualities of light and materials and things that were really native to the waterfront before all of this redevelopment.

 

00;04;04;28 - 00;04;14;08

DP

And the project, as I said, very large. Could you tell me a little bit about the zoning requirements and any challenges you guys had in terms of planning?

 

00;04;14;10 - 00;05;11;19

JI

So the project is as of right. It follows the zoning guidelines. The lot itself is actually split up into two different zones. So towards the inland it's mostly low rise. We had a height cap of 65ft with portions that were allowable to go up to 100. And then towards the waterfront. The zoning actually got a little more complicated where there were a few different conditions that you could meet.

 

It opened up these different paths for how the building could be formed. One path was a one tower scheme, which would bring you up to 360ft. And then the other was actually a two tower scheme where if one tower made it to 200ft, the other would be allowed up to 400ft. We took advantage of that in order to move more of the mass to the waterfront.

 

It helped gradually declined building back into the fabric of the community, and it provided more waterfront views.

 

00;05;11;21 - 00;05;19;14

DP

John Zimmer shared insights on The Lively, an 18 story tower in Jersey City's Powerhouse Arts District.

 

00;05;19;17 - 00;06;12;23

JZ (John Zimmer)

The Powerhouse Arts District in Jersey City is so named because there is a somewhat iconic powerhouse there. It had been an industrial area that was targeted for redevelopment, and they had design standards for the entire district that were meant to maintain that character. Not necessarily industrial, but loft style, focus on the arts. The entire district has a strong focus on the arts, which is part of the reason we have the black box theater in The Lively.

 

It's experienced a lot of new development over the course of the last decade, and it's pretty great today. When I first started going over to the powerhouse ten years ago, I'd get out of meetings and the sidewalks would be deserted, and today it feels like Brooklyn. It feels like the East Village. I mean, it is incredibly, for want of a better word, lively.

 

So it's a great neighborhood now, and it's all happened in the last decade. It's an exciting thing to have been a part of, honestly.

 

00;06;12;26 - 00;06;20;01

DP

This mixed use development includes retail spaces, a black box theater, and residential units.

 

00;06;20;03 - 00;07;17;00

JZ

180 residential units. Lennar is one of the biggest home builders in America, but they were mostly doing suburban subdivision work. They got into the urban markets. I can't tell you exactly one, but they were still a little bit new to it. When we took this project on and they were ambitious, they wanted to be at the absolute top of the market for a residential building in Jersey city.

 

And obviously, as any developer does, they wanted to maximize rentable square footage and get the most bang for their buck. And they had this requirement for the black box theater. You know, the project came with this with its approval, but it got a zoning bonus for having the theater in the base of extra height. It was a give back to the community that was written into the zoning, and we always knew it was going to be a theater, and we always knew it was going to be for a nonprofit arts group.

 

And that arts program as part of the building was in the DNA of the project from the very beginning, and informed a lot of the decisions moving forward became part of the personality of the building throughout, not just the theater itself, really.

 

00;07;17;03 - 00;07;23;18

DP

Vincente Quiroga discussed 29 Huron, a two tower development in Greenpoint, Brooklyn.

 

00;07;23;20 - 00;08;40;15

VQ (Vincente Quiroga)

The history of the site, you know, it's a long, narrow site. Our building massing is 100ft in the north south direction. It's over 500ft in the east west direction. So it's very distended and lengthened and narrowed. The original site was a one story warehouse, which was kind of the context of the neighborhood. I lived in that neighborhood many years ago, and that was the context.

 

The context is changing primarily because in a sort of Bloomberg era, there was up zoning plan, but then the 2008 crisis stalled those plans, and it took a while for that increase, zoning and development to come to fruition. And so we were part of that increased zoning for the site. In terms of the massing, we wanted to take a sense of the character that was there and honor that.

 

Not all the projects that we see built. Really take that into account. And we were thinking, what is the context now and what was the context in the past? So we really thought about selecting a one story podium and selecting brick as the foundation for that, and also being practical about the openings and where they are located. The emphasis for the target population would be families.

 

So large units, lots of two bedroom and three bedroom units, a lot of outdoor access and the views because of its waterfront proximity.

 

00;08;40;18 - 00;09;05;15

DP

Yeah, the site is unbelievable and you guys really take advantage of just about everything out there. It's a great project. So let's talk about the design. So first let's talk about the building stylistically. So to me it looks a lot like a very contemporary warehouse space right. So there's lots of glass. It almost appears lantern like in the photos that I saw at dusk.

It's beautiful.

 

00;09;05;18 -  00;09;34;00

VQ

The choice of the materials was very specific. The neighborhood has a unique grid orientation to the world, and so it captures the light in the sunrise and sunset, in particular the brick. We chose to be a rough molded brick with a dark mortar, and the metal panel has a mica flake to it that captures the light and changes throughout the day.

 

So some times it looks orange and coppery. Sometimes it actually looks bronze toned and it has a chocolate Sienna under glass to it.

 

00;09;34;07 - 00;09;42;01

DP

Each project faced unique challenges. 29 Huron is situated in a flood zone requiring innovative solutions.

 

00;09;42;04 - 00;10;20;28

VQ

The first story is about 17ft in height, and so there's some very high ceiling experiences there, ranging from 12 to 14ft ceilings within the amenities alone. And that also gave us the room to deal with some of the flood constraints as well. Being that the site is adjacent to the East River, the predicted flood zones right now are anywhere from 5 to 6ft above grade.

 

So that was a challenge and a constraint early on where we had to coordinate. We certainly decided we weren't going to excavate because of the high water table. So some of the functions that you would put in the cellar, we put a grade, but we often had to elevate the critical services six feet above where you normally would place them.

 

00;10;21;01 - 00;10;27;26

DP

So I'm curious, when you're digging that close to the water, do you get a lot of water, a lot of groundwater coming in when you're creating your foundation?

 

00;10;27;27 - 00;10;56;08

VQ

Yes. You do. Yes. Early on there was a lot of pile driving very deep anywhere from, I would say 30 or 40ft down. And those piles were linked up with large caps, pile caps, and then mat foundations at the towers. The slab itself, because of, you know, you have to think more like a boat or a bathtub. The slab itself was anywhere from 24in to 18in thick at various points throughout it, and it has to resist uplift.

 

00;10;56;11 - 00;11;01;27

DP

Well, that's really interesting. So when you're driving piles and there's a lot of bedrock, how do you do that?

 

00;11;01;29 - 00;11;21;04

VQ

The nature of the historic waterfront is often landfilled. So a lot of it is just trash or sediment. Over 200 years, people just dump things in the river. And it created a new shoreline, which was often the case, as you see in lower Manhattan as well. So we knew that we were going to have to go deep to hit rock.

 

00;11;21;10 - 00;11;25;28

DP

So you're driving the piles then 25 or 30ft in?

 

00;11;25;29 - 00;12;21;29

VQ

Yeah. And another challenge relating to the waterfront edges we had to deal with actually coordinate with the marine architect because the edge condition was failing and we needed to remediate it. So we coordinated a new driving a new sheet edge along the shore to create that. The site actually is interesting in that it has a natural cove condition that other areas along the waterfront don't.

 

And so we recreated that in the remediation. But we also worked with the landscape architect to create this, We're obligated by zoning to create a setback for public access on the site. So they really leaned into that curved cove condition that's set back and stepped it down to the water gradually from grade, and incorporated eco concrete blocks that have various pockets that allow kind of tidepool action to happen.

 

And so we thought about breaking down the shoreline a little bit and not just a hard edge.

 

00;12;22;02 - 00;12;31;12

DP

It sounds really interesting. I mean, when somebody owns a piece of property like that and it's really sitting on debris, in many cases, it's kind of unusual.

 

00;12;31;14 - 00;13;07;28

VQ

I mean, we tried to find opportunities to maximize the value of the site with the two towers strategy. We put lots of valuable floor area up high and took advantage of the views. We made double the amount of corner units that you could have by having a two towers. We also separated them over 100ft apart, so that the west tower really gets out there in front of other buildings that are it's alongside the east tower is a setback for the east to kind of get around other buildings that could obscure it.

 

And we were actually surprised at how good the views are as it was being built. We knew it was going to be good, but it actually turned out to be better than we anticipated.

 

00;13;08;00 - 00;13;14;27

DP

It's really beautiful about the design as the corners are opened up, then to become porches, right? Terraces. Is that correct?

 

00;13;15;00 - 00;13;34;04

VQ

That's right. So as part of that is a response to some zoning constraints. At a certain height, you also had to setback in multiple directions. And one of the things that we like to do is incorporate our balconies into the building facade and not just look like appendages. So we really took advantage of that setback rule and created these covered, protected balconies.

 

00;13;34;07 - 00;13;44;23

DP

The Lively was also situated in a flood zone, requiring solutions such as deployable barriers, elevated critical systems and flood resistant glazing.

 

00;13;44;25 - 00;14;09;02

JZ

The unique topographic feature would be that it's below the 100 year flood elevation. That's always a big deal. And the sidewalks there, I think are about five feet above sea level. So flood protection resiliency, ground floor uses. How do you enter the building? How do you avoid nuisance flooding when it's not a 100 year storm? Those were all big aspects of the design of the ground floor or the pedestrian experience.

 

00;14;09;05 - 00;14;10;16

DP

So breakaway walls?

 

00;14;10;23 - 00;14;40;01

JZ

There are deployable flood barrier systems designed in. So the flood elevation is seven feet above the sidewalk. In the event of a massive tech, a hurricane Sandy kind of thing, they would deploy these flood barrier systems. I don't know if you're familiar with them, but they keep them in storage and they come out and they both enter the building, or they spread them around the building.

 

They can be self-supporting, and they have to be deployed in a certain amount of time because it's an emergency response system. So a big part of all the projects in this area.

 

00;14;40;06 - 00;14;44;17

DP

And what about zoning codes? You had mentioned you had a height issue.

 

00;14;44;19 - 00;15;27;12

JZ

Yeah. So the building got, I think, 65 additional feet for having the black box theater in it. That was one zoning aspect. You can see the cantilever here over the sidewalk. There was a sidewalk widening requirement in the zoning. So that made it obviously challenging. You've got 17 stories of residences coming down over a cantilever that allows the sidewalk to be wider at the base.

 

That was an interesting challenge. There's a little bit of parking in the building that came from the zoning. So obviously some structural challenges there as well. Whenever you're putting that many residences over the top of a parking garage. The second floor here that you see through the window, that is also designated art space in the zoning also requirement.

 

00;15;27;14 - 00;15;32;26

DP

So I don't do tall buildings. How many extra floors to 65ft get you?

 

00;15;32;29 - 00;15;59;27

JZ

I think it was basically five because the top floor is an amenity space, rooftop amenity, which was specifically permitted by the zoning bonus. I think it really made the building, the massing and the expression of these mid-range buildings is a little bit tricky. They're not as tall as they want to be to be a tall building, and they're not as low rise as they want to be to be a low rise building.

 

And I think the extra stories really help to give it a little bit more verticality. It's a better piece of architecture for it.

 

00;16;00;02 - 00;16;03;22

DP

So tell us about the building plan. You said there's a sharp corner.

 

00;16;03;24 - 00;16;47;10

JZ

Yeah, very acute corner. There's two lot lines and it has a corner lot. So right where you have your corner window with two exposures, there's a very acute corner and I can't remember the actual degrees. But anytime you have a building it's not just the corner that's a problem. In fact the corner isn't really a problem. You may not be able to put a sofa in that corner, but the corner per se is not a problem.

 

It's kind of a cool room to be inside of, but what it means is that the apartments on each of those two different streets are on different geometries. And so if you're going to have a rectilinear apartment on streets that are at such different geometries that all crashes into each other at the corner and at the corridors and at the courtyards, so it becomes very challenging to plan buildings that feel sensible and projects that have this kind of site.

 

00;16;47;12 - 00;16;59;02

DP

The narrow, irregular site of The Lively, demanded creative massing strategies to optimize space while meeting zoning requirements and maintaining contextual sensitivity.

 

00;16;59;05 - 00;18;01;13

JZ

From its get go. There was never any question it was going to be a contemporary building. As far as where we drew our inspiration from and what we were looking at, you know, I mentioned the difficulty, the massing for these midnight buildings. I think the gathering together, the window openings into these vertical slots helps to emphasize the verticality of the building.

 

We have this prominent gold portal for the black box theater and the building entrance, and that became an idea that we repeated throughout the facade frame, these moments on the facade. And I think generally we try to be pretty rigorous about how the facades are designed. Obviously you've got structural continuity, but then you've got what always happens in residential design is you've got living rooms that are one width and you've got bedrooms that are a different width.

 

And so a strictly rational grid is probably not going to serve you well for a residential building the way it does for a commercial building. So you're often trying to find a way to manage that. If your interest is fundamentally and having a kind of rigorous and rational facade, you're trying to find a way to manage those partitions hitting the wall.

 

00;18;01;13 - 00;18;19;27

JZ

And what does that mean? And at the same time, I think creating a facade with movement and interest and dynamism and that play on the facade, I think was always an important part. And you could say it is part of the emphasis on the arts and the theater and dance, but also obviously just an interest in creating something fresh.

 

00;18;19;29 - 00;18;28;25

DP

At One Java for the project prioritized views and thoughtful use of materials which elevated the design and ensured long term durability.

 

00;18;28;28 - 00;18;56;15

JI

So the site's essentially just a rectangle. It's the size of a full city block, and on three sides on the north, the east and the south, we have streets. And then the west side is the waterfront. It's the East River. So the way that we've organized the buildings around the site is in this U-shape where they start up in the northwest corner, move around down West Street and then below, creating a view that opens up towards the water.

 

00;18;56;18 - 00;18;59;18

DP

So it's really all about the views, which it should be.

 

00;18;59;20 - 00;19;14;19

JI

Yes, it's something that it needs to be on the waterfront as well as it is about the views back into the neighborhood. We try to open up the view corridors from the building and leave as much view towards the water and towards the horizon from the rest of Greenpoint as we can.

 

00;19;14;22 - 00;19;24;13

DP

So tell us a little bit about the material choices. We've got a series of different materials and colors there. What were the decisions behind that?

 

00;19;24;15 - 00;20;16;04

JI

The building massing itself is broken up into five unique buildings, and out of those we have two towers that are precast, and those are the buildings on the waterfront. And then inland, there are three different buildings that range from ten stories to six stories. And those three buildings are brick, and that we really wanted to draw back from a lot of our inspirations in the Greenpoint community.

 

There's no shortage of brick precedents there. There's beautiful buildings such as The Astral, which is this queen in red brick terracotta building. There's Saint Anthony's Church, which is red brick and limestone trim. It's really beautiful, striking building. We looked towards kind of the history of the waterfront, those manufacturing industrial buildings, and used that precedent to define these brick colors, these three different brick buildings.

 

00;20;16;06 - 00;20;44;28

DP

So interestingly, the facades. So we've got the shorter or we've got the less tall architecture, which are brick buildings, and the facades are a series of what I'll call punctures with spandrel. It looks like spandrel brick in between each one of these vertically in between each one of the window openings. Correct? Yes. So how many studies did you guys end up doing to decide what these facades looked like?

 

00;20;45;00 - 00;21;23;17

JI

Everything kind of melded together. At some point, it's hard to break it down into a number because it was just this completely iterative process where we'd look at something, we'd make a model, we draw it, we'd look at it again, we'd make another model, we draw it. And this evolved from the concept, schematic designs all the way through to the construction document development.

 

This idea of the different brick details that actually came from wanting to streamline the project. So we use the same details on each of the brick buildings, but we remix them in each one. We use them in a different order to create a different identity for each of these.

 

00;21;23;19 - 00;21;40;29

DP

I think what's really interesting about these facades too, so you separate them facades into squares or rectangles, and then they have this very well. It looks subtle in elevation from far away, but it's actually a very large construction joint in between each one of these square rectangular panels. Correct?

 

00;21;41;02 - 00;21;56;02

JI

Yes. We use that construction joint and we overemphasize it. We use this double soldier coursing reveal tool as a way to further break up the massing and kind of imply this subdivisions within the buildings.

 

00;21;56;05 - 00;21;59;01

DP

And how deep is that, is that one brick thickness?

 

00;21;59;04 - 00;22;00;20

JI

It's two inches.

 

00;22;00;20 - 00;22;11;11

DP

Two inches. It's nice because when you look at the facade, I mean, it looks quite homogenous. But if you look at it a little bit more deeply, it's separated into these squares and rectangles. It's very pretty.

 

00;22;11;16 - 00;22;30;20

JI

Yeah. That's the effect that we really want to go for in terms of how this fits into the fabric of Greenpoint. We like the idea of there being this large scale massing that breaks down and continues to break down the closer you get, and it relates to more of your scale relative to the way that you're viewing it.

 

00;22;30;22 - 00;22;52;26

DP

You know, as an aside, what's really pretty, the red brick that you guys use there, there are a lot of lighter bricks in that facade, and so it makes it look almost pink in color, but you get up close to it and you can see a lot of variations in these colors in the red colored brick, a lot of like I'll call it value, but it's light and dark red brick.

 

00;22;52;29 - 00;23;57;04

JI

For that facade we're using a blended brick, and we wanted that to echo some of the red brick buildings that you already see on West Street, on the waterfront. That was kind of our launching point for coming up with this brick palette. We knew that there was going to be a red brick building. We knew that it was going to be relative to those warehouses.

 

And then the other two bricks were kind of an offshoot that based on how we wanted to frame this story of the building as you move around the site. So to the north, there's a lighter brick. It's something that we see as a little more modern. We try to keep the tones of the brick and mortar and the sills and other materials a little more homogenous.

 

And then on the flip side of that, on the southern street of the building, Java Street, we wanted to use something with a bit more variation. We wanted a higher contrast between the ground and the brick, a higher variability within the bricks. And that's something that we saw as a little more nostalgic to some of those worker housings and the smaller buildings that you begin to see as you move more inland.

 

00;23;57;07 - 00;24;41;16

DP

These mixed use projects demonstrate how brick and thoughtful architectural design can serve as a bridge between the past and future. By blending functionality with design, each project contributes to its community while addressing practical and esthetic goals.

 

Jeremy, John and Vincenet emphasize the importance of collaboration, innovation, and a deep understanding of site context in achieving these outcomes. Ultimately, these developments showcase how mixed use projects can create vibrant, connected urban environments, enriching neighborhoods through thoughtful integration of diverse uses and attention to detail in design and execution.

 

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;19

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;21 - 00;00;28;06

Gavri Slasky (GS)

We were given the site. Needed to build as many units as we could, but to keep the center open and accessible to the public. This courtyard, this Village Green, was intended to be used by the Village for tree lighting ceremonies or other public events. The idea was to try to incorporate the public into the building as much as possible.

 

00;00;28;14 - 00;02;31;27

DP

This is my guest, Gavri Slasky. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault will highlight Gavri’s project Morgan Parc. The Morgan Parc Project is comprised of 267 residential units situated above retail space. The nine story building is composed of a central tower at the far side of the square, flanked by two symmetrical wings, the masonry facades draw upon turn of the century mill buildings whose architecture is expressed in their strong, deep structural piers and intricate brick details.

The building facade is composed of masonry piers that extend the full height of the building, opening up a ground floor to create a retail arcade that wraps a courtyard. Large industrial sized window units span between the deep piers. The building is capped by glass, enclosed rooftop amenity spaces, an outdoor pool and terracing roofs, which overlook Long Island.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

Today we're talking to Gavri Slasky, AIA, LEED AP. Gavri received his master’s in architecture from Princeton University and his B.A. from Columbia University in Architecture. Gavri started his career at Stephen B. Jacobs Group as the project manager for an 11 story 311-unit residential building in Long Island. Since then, together with Mr. Stephen Jacobs, he has designed and managed over 3 million square feet of residential new construction throughout New York and developed an expertise in building codes of the city and state.

Gavri specializes in piloting projects from conception to completion, testifying at local zoning boards, producing documentation for building department approval, overseeing construction administration and working together with the general contractor and owner in achieving building occupancy. Today, we're going to talk to Gavri about SBJ's Morgan Parc project. So welcome, Gavri.

 

00;02;32;00 - 00;02;34;00

GS

Thank you, Doug. Good to see you.

 

00;02;34;02 - 00;02;47;26

DP

And it's great to see you. It's nice to have you with us today. So, before we get started, tell us a little bit about Stephen B. Jacobs Group. Where are they located in New York? What's the size of the firm? And what type of work too they do?

 

00;02;47;28 - 00;03;38;20

GS

So, we are a mid-sized firm, about 30 architects and interior designers in Manhattan, where we're on Park Avenue South and 27th Street. So just north of the side iron building there. Our firm has been around for quite a long time. The founder of the firm, Stephen Jacobs, created the firm in 1967. So, it's been over 50 years. And the amount of work that he's done in New York is uncountable. So, over this time, you go to any street in New York and there's a building by SBJ Group.

For the most part, we specialize in multifamily housing. We've done quite a number of hotels and we've diversified recently into school buildings, commercial buildings, and we do quite a range of work.

 

00;03;38;23 - 00;03;46;15

DP

That's pretty impressive walking around New York City. Do you ever count on how many buildings they've done? Is it like a hundred? Like 200?

 

00;03;46;17 - 00;03;49;09

GS

No, there's definitely thousands, for sure.

 

00;03;49;10 - 00;03;50;04

DP

Oh, my goodness.

 

00;03;50;11 - 00;04;05;00

GS

We have this old Sanborn book, and every time that we got a project, I remember one of the former principals of the firm, Herb Weber, would just shade the lot in and so he would be able to flip through and keep track of it that way.

 

00;04;05;06 - 00;04;30;07

DP

Those Sanborn maps are pretty incredible. When I was at Penn State. My thesis was Housing for the Homeless in Times Square, if you can believe it. But I sent away for the specific Sanborn maps for that location, and I believe they were used by firemen. Yeah, they had to have been 75, 80 years old. They were updating at one point. I don't even know what they do today. Can you even get Sanborn maps?

 

00;04;30;14 - 00;04;48;05

GS

You can. Now, everything is digitally available. You have digital tax maps. They're super precise and updated. You can rewind history and go back to see what this looked like a decade ago or a hundred years ago and see how the site has evolved. Just a fun site analysis.

 

00;04;48;07 - 00;05;11;22

DP

Yeah. The maps have a footprint of the building at that particular location at the particular time, and then they have the heights of the buildings of various heights as you move around the building so you can literally build a model from them. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. So, this interview's pretty unique because you're in Israel and we oddly enough, know one another. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that?

 

00;05;11;25 - 00;05;15;22

GS

Yeah. It's great to see you. It's been almost 20 years.

 

00;05;15;23 - 00;05;17;15

DP

Oh, my goodness gracious.

 

00;05;17;17 - 00;05;35;14

GS

That's hard to say. The summer of 2004, I had just graduated Columbia. My teacher, Joeb Moore, offered me a summer internship at his firm in Greenwich. My seat was actually right next to your seat. I was wondering if you would remember me. It's been a long time.

 

00;05;35;16 - 00;05;45;20

DP

I do. I was like Gavry Slasky. Yes! I remember the name! It was a long time ago.

 

00;05;45;24 - 00;05;49;10

GS

It was. And to be fair, I was only there for a summer.

 

00;05;49;11 - 00;06;04;04

DP

So yeah. I joined Joeb in 1999, I believe, and I worked with him for about 20 years, 15 of those as a consultant. So, it was a great experience. He's an amazing architect, one of the most talented men I've ever met in my life.

 

00;06;04;07 - 00;06;09;26

GS

He's an amazing architect and such a kind person. Does such beautiful work.

 

00;06;09;28 - 00;06;21;15

DP

He does. If you're interested, Joeb Moore, joebmoore.com. Check it out. So how long have you been with Stephen B Jacobs group? Tell us more about your role in the Office.

 

00;06;21;17 - 00;06;22;13

GS

So I've been.

 

00;06;22;13 - 00;08;06;24

GS

At group for about a decade, and the first project I worked on, which he mentioned actually was in Mineola. It's not this Morgan Parc project. It was sort of the predecessor to this. We were working on a 300 plus unit apartment building, around the corner from this Morgan Parc project, called One Third Avenue, and that was my first project working with Stephen, and with this same client, Kevin Lalezarian.

That was a new experience for me. I had previously worked on single family homes. I worked for a year at KPF, so that was completely different, working on Super Towers in Asia. This was New York. This was something that was extremely practical. It's going to get built. It was going to get built, and fast. And the people in the office, they knew what they were doing. They done that type of work for a long time. So, it was quite a learning curve for me. That was a great project.

And during construction of that project, One Third Avenue, the client decided to go ahead with the second project around the corner from that. He had faith that he wouldn't be competing with himself. He'd be able to fill up all of his units.

We started designing Morgan Parc. That was such a rewarding project for me because I was on that from day zero, going with the client and Stephen to the Planning Board meetings and really seeing how a project starts from its conception, being in every single meeting, hearing how the building gets massed out, all the different considerations of it through the years of approvals and construction. And it opened about three years ago, during the pandemic, actually.

 

00;08;06;26 - 00;08;39;17

DP

So, let's talk a little bit about the building. Just as an aside, so I met Isaac Daniel Astrachan a couple of weeks back. He also works for SBJ. I was a host for a panel discussion here at the Brickworks Design Studio on 5th Avenue, and Isaac was on the panel talking about the Morgan Parc project. So, I know a little bit about it, but let's get into the details. So, you just explained how your office got the project. Your client wanted to do another building with you guys. Had SBJ worked with those clients for a number of years, even before the project you came in on?

 

00;08;39;20 - 00;09;13;28

GS

Yes. The Lalezarians are a family of real estate developers and property owners, second generation and repeat clients for us, as are many of our clients. That's what they do. They build buildings, they hold on to the buildings, they manage them, and we try to give them the best service that we can, be as efficient as possible and make the most beautiful building that we can with the budget. And they come back to us. That is basically the goal. So, most of our clients are repeat clients like that.

 

00;09;14;00 - 00;09;36;04

DP

Well, it's really impressive. It's the most important thing for an architect, right, to get word of mouth business. You're not marketing your company all the time. You've got a steady stream of people that are coming back to you after they get to work with you, you know, the first time. So that's wonderful to hear. So, tell us a little bit about the history of the location of Morgan Parc and what impact that might have had on the design.

 

00;09;36;08 - 00;10;24;05

GS

So, Morgan Parc is on a piece of property right in the center of Mineola, which is the seat of Nassau County. The property is right across the street from the train station, so it is uniquely located for a transit-oriented development. It is right in the center of their downtown.

Prior to our client owning the property, all that existed on that property was a single Citibank building and a sea of parking. Actually, during the construction of One Third Avenue that I mentioned before, our client, when he purchased the Morgan Parc property, moved the Citibank tenants into One Third Avenue building and making way for this second development.

 

00;10;24;08 - 00;10;25;12

DP

That's really interesting.

 

00;10;25;15 - 00;11;00;26

GS

It's located at the heart of their downtown right next to the train station. NYU Langone is right across the street there as well. So, it's a busy area. And on Mineola’s master plan from a few decades ago, this site was labeled as the village green. It was their sort of center, their downtown. But that was a sort of future hope that somebody would make that a reality. Village Green was actually a working name of our project until marketing came along and made it into Morgan Parc. But that was always in the forefront of the design.

 

00;11;00;28 - 00;11;05;24

DP

So, that's a good segway. So, tell us a little bit about the programmatic requirements from the client.

 

00;11;05;27 - 00;12;00;08

GS

We were given the site. Needed to build as many units as we could, but to keep the center open and accessible to the public. This courtyard, this Village Green, was intended to be used by the Village for tree lighting ceremonies or other public events. The idea was to try to incorporate the public into the building as much as possible – or when I say the building, the site. It's a large square shaped property. While it was a parking lot for Citibank, people would use it as a cut through, as a shortcut to get to the train station. And so that also became part of the program. The client wanted to maintain access, crisscrossing through the site so people can still get to the train station without having to walk all the way around the block. So, we created these openings between the different wings of the building so people can get from one side to the other.

 

00;12;00;11 - 00;12;02;21

DP

Describe the building plan to us then.

 

00;12;02;24 - 00;12;44;18

GS

It's a U-shaped building which has its tallest portion on the tracks, which is that front street. So it’s the back of the building. So that's a nine story structure at that point. It has the two wings of the “U” that gradually step down to six stories at Second Street, which is the downtown street.

The scale of the building respectfully interacts with the existing context there. The larger buildings that I mentioned at NYU and some other buildings are situated at the train tracks in that zone. And then the historic downtown is lower scale, three- or four-story buildings.

 

00;12;44;20 - 00;12;47;29

DP

So, you're a little bit of an expert on zoning codes.

 

00;12;48;01 - 00;12;50;29

GS

I've had my share of reading-

 

00;12;51;01 - 00;13;04;22

DP

Right! So, it sounds to me like a project like this, you really got pretty good at what's going on with the city – what the requirements are. So, tell us a little bit about the project restrictions for this particular job, maybe a little bit about the zoning codes.

 

00;13;04;25 - 00;13;39;19

GS

They don't quite have a zone sort of set up for this. So, what we had to do is go in and propose what it is that we wanted to build there – look around at other developments in that area and see what would be appropriate and then open that up to discussion to the public. And that project was in front of the planning board maybe four times. These meetings, which started about 7 p.m. or so, they would go till 11 p.m. they would have standing room only of people giving comments pro and against.

 

00;13;39;25 - 00;13;47;25

DP

Their local people come to the meeting, and they want to say what they think of the architecture. So, this is like an architectural review board, right?

 

00;13;47;29 - 00;15;02;11

GS

Sorta. You know, it's interesting because the comments were less about the architecture, more about planning, traffic, and heights of buildings and schoolchildren. So those were the major concerns that they had, but it was the democratic process. So, watching it play out, seeing everybody given the opportunity to have a voice, and through that process, the building changed as well. In reaction to that, the building got smaller.

And we were given the opportunity also to present the benefits of the building and what the building would be offering the city, because as we were designing this, this wasn't a building that we were designing in isolation from far away and imposing it onto the local town, but rather with the village of Mineola in mind constantly. And so, so much of the building was being built and designed not just for the residents but for the people of the town. And I used to go out there during construction every week or two and go to the coffee shop across the street and really got to see this downtown come together where there used to be, essentially, a hole in the middle of it with this enormous parking lot. The building has so many different facets to it, but the public side of it was really rewarding.

 

00;15;02;13 - 00;15;10;09

DP

Well, again, a good segway. Why don't you talk a little bit about the style choice and how it reflects or relates to the buildings that are around and in the neighborhood?

 

00;15;10;12 - 00;16;11;05

GS

So, when Stephen conceived of the design of this building, he was thinking of historic mill buildings, turn of the century factory buildings that were made of brick, that had large openings, had repeated structural piers. They were built in an efficient way, allowing for large openings to light up the factories where the work would be taking place in. And they were often clad in brick by masons who were extremely talented. And it's hard to find people of that talent today, but that was their craft.

So that was in the back of Stephen's head and a lot of the work that he did in the early period of his career in the late sixties, early seventies was adaptive reuse. He had taken these types of buildings and turned them into lofts, but at this point he was creating this new building that based off of its old historic model.

 

00;16;11;08 - 00;16;28;14

DP

So, when the clients came to you guys and you talked a little bit about aesthetics, did they give you any historical precedents or did they say, hey, this building has got to match the aesthetic of what's around it? And then maybe talk a little bit about your use of brick and why you guys chose that particular brick and that color.

 

00;16;28;17 - 00;17;47;13

GS

I had mentioned that these were repeat clients, so we knew them very well. We knew their tastes. We knew their preferences. They came to us, and they said that they wanted a timeless building, a building that wasn't a fad that would be dated in a decade or so. They wanted something timeless. They don't build buildings and then sell them. They build them, and then they keep them and maintain them as part of their portfolio. So, they were looking to create something for the long run.

So, I think at that point, Stephen started to think about these historic buildings that are so beautiful that they become historic landmarks and get adapted for one use, changing to another, use. I brought people to see this building after it was completed and they asked me, what was this building before? It's funny to think that this is a brand-new building, but I thought that that was actually quite a compliment. We are trying to emulate historic buildings. We never thought that we would be able to fool people that this was historic. That wasn't the intent, but it just fits. And when the client asked for timeless, I feel like that type of reaction from people that visit the building didn't know the site before. I feel like that accomplished the goal that the client was looking for.

 

00;17;47;20 - 00;18;28;19

DP

Yeah, Issac said the same thing when he was here that people had asked how long the building had been there, you know, after the building had been constructed. So interestingly, when you go to school, when you go to architecture school, one of the first things I learned was that the architect is striving for timelessness in their work, right?

Not all architects choose to do that, but at Penn State they talked about that a lot. I found it pretty interesting. I like to ask people that come in whether or not brick solved any design challenges or design problems for you guys. And clearly it did in this aesthetic realm. But can you think of any other way that you were able to use Masonry and it solved some design challenges?

 

00;18;28;22 - 00;19;51;00

GS

There's a lot of different facets of this building, but I think the brick is one of the key factors that brought this whole building together. It's a large building. There could have been other approaches to take using different materials to break up the mass, and you see that quite a lot around the suburbs. What Stephen wanted to do was to embrace that this was a large building and take one material, being brick, and use it as many ways as possible and unify the building, make one unified building out of it.

We worked on a few details. We worked on them and reworked them and got feedback from masons, reworked them again. We created a couple of unique shaped bricks. We were playing with all sorts of articulation, ins and outs and we ended up with a detail for the pier and detail for the cornice, a detail for a second-floor band – it was really about three or four typical details that we worked out. And then repeated it in a rhythm and executed it. And it was wonderful working with the masons on site as well, because as architects we can draw what we want, but at the end of the day it's all about the execution of the craftsperson. We were fortunate to have a great mason on the project.

 

00;19;51;07 - 00;19;55;05

DP

So, did you guys build actual physical mock ups that were out there?

 

00;19;55;07 - 00;20;18;10

GS

Yes, we did. We built a couple of mockups and made a couple of adjustments during that period. And then they started and they were able to start low down on the building, did a few portions, and then once they got those couple of details down, they're able to run with it. And it was a long process and a lot of brick, and the client had faith in it. I was very fortunate about that and it came out great.

 

00;20;18;12 - 00;20;38;12

DP

So, two quick questions about how long everything took. I'd like to think about how large is the set of drawings when you're going to build a building like Morgan Parc? Did you guys draw the thing in 2D and 3D? And how long did this whole process take? Through Planning, city review, design, and then construction.

 

00;20;38;14 - 00;21;42;03

GS

Great question. The way that we work, we work in 3D and 2D. At the same time, we usually model the building in Revit. We’ll work out the massing, the elevations, study different details in three dimensions and color, testing out different color combinations. We had gone back and forth on whether the windowsills should be metal or cast stone or brick. And we tested out these options in three dimensions and 3D models.

The working drawings at the end of the day were all done two dimension CAD, and they were, you know, as precise as we could get. It's actually interesting. The building is a U-shaped plan, but it's two Ls that are joined at the center to make this U-shaped. So, the building is actually mirrored down that center. So, we were able to draw it, one L, and mirror it. That was part of my struggle over the years, was to try to keep it as symmetrical as possible so that we can keep on using that for efficiency.

 

00;21;42;06 - 00;21;45;16

DP

That's pretty cool. So, you really only had to draw half the building, right?

 

00;21;45;19 - 00;21;47;11

GS

For the most part.

 

00;21;47;13 - 00;22;13;14

DP

I'm sure there's way more that goes into it, but when you first say that, you say, Oh wow, that's pretty cool. So, the thing is simply mirrored. I'm sure there's a lot of differentiation that goes from one L to the other, but it's pretty interesting.

So, what's, kind of, top of mind for a lot of people today is sustainability. Did you guys talk about that at all in terms of using masonry, or was that a request that the client had that you guys had to keep in mind?

 

00;22;13;19 - 00;24;17;16

GS

Sustainability is something that's viewed in every project that we do in one sense or another. Brick buildings allowed for a cavity wall and continuous insulation on the exterior of the backup wall. And so, it allows for a beautiful finish, but a very sustainable envelope. And the amount of insulation that you put in that cavity wall is really dependent on how large of a relieving angle you can get for the brick because the more insulation you have, the further the brick has to be on the backup wall. That's sort of the only limitation.

 

00;22;52;09 - 00;22;54;03

DP

And what did you guys end up doing?

 

00;22;54;04 - 00;24;17;16

GS

Yeah, it's been a couple of years. I don't remember exactly. We put as much as we could. We put insulation on the inside as well.

This is not exactly related to brick, but one of the most interesting, sustainable anecdotes from this building that I remember is in the excavation of the building. Long Island is built on sand primarily, and it's a great site for foundations to build shallow foundations. The sand takes the load, but another advantage of it was the contractor who excavated out the sand, and I don't know how many hundreds or thousands of truckloads of sand have to go out of this building – I didn't even mention that the building has three cellars for parking – so they went down 30, 40 feet into the ground for the entire site. So maybe a million and a half cubic feet.

The contractor who was excavating that, taking that sand away, sold that sand to a construction company for concrete. So concrete is a very carbon heavy building material. But what I like to think about was that the sand in the foundations in the site for this building, actually went back into the building process. I'm sure it didn't go to our building. It probably went to someone else's, but it wasn't just shipped off to someplace and dumped somewhere.

00;24;17;24 - 00;24;39;16

DP

We always have interesting experiences, right? So, was there anything as you went through this process of building Morgan Parc, designing it and ultimately going through the various stages with the town, with the city, then getting the thing built? Was her anything that you or your team learned that was really interesting for you? It was kind of a first.

 

00;24;39;19 - 00;25;48;27

GS

There's so many firsts. Every building process is a learning experience. There's this one lesson learned that was interesting. It was during the brick installation, actually. I noticed that there was this one detail at the corner of the building that wasn’t correct, and I was wondering how could they make that mistake?

It doesn't have the usual frame around it. The brick checker pattern just died into the side and I looked at our drawings and then I realized that the elevation was taken with a pier, hiding a portion of the elevation behind it. And so, it looked like that was the end of the building, but it actually continued another foot or so. And the mason was looking at the elevation and they didn't see that.

So, they just continued the same pattern until the end that maybe they thought there was a dimensional mistake or something. So, every week I would go to them and say, are you going to fix that detail? And he was like, at the end. And I was thinking to myself, oh, you better fix that at the end before Stephen comes to take a look at that. But he did. And that was an interesting lesson learned – to make sure that every elevation is drawn, nothing is being hidden by any portion of the building in and of itself.

 

00;25;49;00 - 00;26;36;13

DP

Well, I think about that a lot, I go out on to the job site and I see something and it's not exactly the way I had drawn it. And sometimes you're just not paying attention, sometimes I didn't cover it well enough in the drawings and unless you're out there on a weekly basis, these things just completely get away from you.

So, one last question before you go. This is very interesting to me. So, you're an expert on zoning and building codes. So, this is an incredibly valuable asset for any office. I would imagine at some point you could probably become an attorney with all the knowledge that you have. Was that something that you always gravitated toward that side of the business over time, or is that just you were kind of thrown into it? It was interesting to you. You were good at it, and that's how it evolved.

 

00;26;36;16 - 00;28;25;23

GS

It's funny, it's not the part of architecture that people are usually interested in, and it definitely wasn't so in the beginning for me. But the more I read through these things, the zoning – New York City, or every different town has their own zoning ordinances - there are so many nuances there, and these words that are written down there were written very carefully, and they create what you're building is going to be. And so, careful reading through these documents are critical, whether it's zoning or building code. And I came to really enjoy creating it. And it is probably the dorkiest thing, but I enjoy it and I enjoy getting emails or calls from colleagues saying, “Gavri, can you check what are we allowed to do here?” I love being able to look it up and learn. Each time I look at it, I learn more and then the codes change from 2008 to 2014, New York City now 2022, and New York State has their own codes. And then to compare in New York City versus New York State and to see what's allowed in one versus the other. They don't tell you why in these things, they just tell you what's allowed or what's not allowed.

You try to think about what is a consideration, what's the difference between New York and New York City in New York State. So, New York State has larger sites. So, their stair cores are allowed to be further away from the center. They try to direct people to have their egress stairs at the edges of the building. The dead end distances are shorter than they are in New York City. In New York City, they allow you to have scissor stairs in residential buildings because you have a small footprint and you don't really have much of a choice. These rules, they end up shaping the plan. They end up shaping every aspect of the building.

 

00;28;26;00 - 00;28;39;28

DP

Well, Gavri, I can tell you really love this stuff. And I'm sure Stephen B. Jacobs Group is very happy to have you. So, thank you very much for spending some time with us today. Where can people go to learn more about SBJ architects?

 

00;28;40;01 - 00;28;49;00

GS

Yeah, you can go to our website sbjgroup.com.

We are on 27th and Park Avenue South. Looking forward to hearing from everybody.

 

00;28;49;07 - 00;28;51;08

DP

It's a small world, man. It’s great to see you.

 

00;28;51;10 - 00;28;53;12

GS

It's great to see you, Doug. Thank you so much.

 

00;28;53;18 - 00;29;21;00

DP

Thanks, Gavri.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;10

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;12 - 00;00;31;14

Vincente Quiroga (VQ)

We actually decided early on that we would adopt the one story podium and also set back sooner than we actually needed to. It increases the lighting there allows for breezes that blow through. It also allows for multiple outdoor terracing to happen. So those units that aren't particularly high and don't have the same views can step out onto your terrace and see the water.

 

And so really maximizes the value and effectiveness and the quality of those spaces.

 

00;00;31;16 - 00;01;05;23

DP

This is my guest, Vicente Quiroga. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault we highlight, Vicente’s project 29 Huron in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. The Huron is a mixed use multifamily 13 story 266,000 square foot building with ground floor retail and high end amenities. In order to account for the narrow site geometry and flood zone, multiple massing schemes were studied with an objective to maximize height and floor area distribution and prioritize views.

 

The building is defined by 2 13 story towers connected by a shared lobby whose step forms narrow on the higher floors. The two tower massing maximizes unobstructed views across the East River, taking advantage of its exceptional waterfront location. Due to the building's location in a flood zone, Morris Adjmi coordinated closely with consultants to provide active flood protection solutions such as deployable flood barriers, temporary stairs, flood vents and flood resistant glazing at storefronts. Located within the building's podium, many of the Huron's amenity spaces fall within the design flood elevation, including the indoor pool. Flood resistant glazing within these spaces maintains transparency. The building's glass and steel towers reflect Greenpoint's industrial heritage, while the rough brick podium is inspired by the materials and scale of surrounding warehouses. The heavily gridded facade is comprised of a window wall system featuring I-beam profiles on the pillars.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Vicente is a registered architect and project manager at Morris Adjmi Architects in New York City. He holds a Bachelor of Arts in Architecture from New York University and a master of architecture from the City College of New York. He has a diverse portfolio encompassing various building types, such as historic renovations, interiors, hotels, art exhibition spaces, educational facilities and high end residential buildings in the Northeast, the United Kingdom and Spain.

 

Vicente also has a broad and unique understanding of New York City's building codes and requirements related to waterfront development and building within flood zones. He's currently managing the Construction Administration of 1 Huron on a 266,000 square foot multifamily building along the East River in Brooklyn's Greenpoint neighborhood. Prior to joining Maurice and me, Vicente worked on public restoration projects for the New York City School Construction Authority and the New York City Department of Design and Construction.

 

So welcome, Vincente. It's nice to have you with us today. Now, for those of you listening who have not heard our interview with Michelle Wagner from Morris Adjmi during the first season. Vicente, could you tell us a little bit about the firm? So where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm? How long has it been around and what kind of work do you do?

 

00;03;38;11 - 00;04;12;25

VQ

We're based in New York City, near the financial district and Wall Street. We also have a New Orleans office as well, because Morris is originally from there. So we have a broad practice, decades of experience, really working first in New York, and particularly in landmark districts and contexts as well as broadening that to sort of a national practice and also very holistic practice involving urban design, placemaking architecture, interiors, furniture and art services.

 

The New York office is approximately 70 people, and I think we have about 10 to 20 people in the office as well.

 

00;04;12;27 - 00;04;18;07

DP

So how long have you been with Morris Adjmi? How long have you been a registered architect and what do you do there?

 

00;04;18;10 - 00;04;58;00

VQ

So I've worked for about six years there and I've been a registered architect for 12 to 13 years in practice. Prior to that, over 15 years of experience since graduate school. So my role is project manager and flex project architect position, just really responsible for anything and everything to do with the project from client management, coordination, staffing, everything, being accountable for the project throughout the life of it.

 

And this one in particular has been special because, you know, in a large practice you often inherit projects or people come and go. This project for me has been involved since day zero through completion, so it's very special to me.

 

00;04;58;07 - 00;04;59;16

DP

And how long has it been?

 

00;04;59;19 - 00;05;10;24

VQ

Started in 2018, so, you know, approximately five or six years. Some of that was due to the pandemic. There is some slow down pausing during that time where it would have sort of completed a little bit faster.

 

00;05;10;27 - 00;05;18;03

DP

So most architects at Morris Adjmi are with one project the entire way through and are working on other jobs at the same time.

 

00;05;18;09 - 00;05;31;02

VQ

Everyone's multitasking. I myself have about six projects actively in different stages of a construction administration or schematic and design development as well. We like to flex our brain.

 

00;05;31;05 - 00;05;33;02

DP

And how do you like being a project manager?

 

00;05;33;09 - 00;06;04;25

VQ

It's good. It's a very challenging role because you're juggling practical logistics as schedule and staffing and the finances, but you're also deeply involved with building the client relationship and trust and working with the team to get to the milestones of the project and deliver what you're trying to do, but also take a higher view and really emphasize what are we trying to do here?

 

What is the objective from a practical standpoint to meet their needs of the project, But also what is the design move? What's the inspiration? What are we trying to do and maintain that throughout the life of the project, which isn't easy?

 

00;06;04;27 - 00;06;08;14

DP

No, it's not. And how big is the team for the Huron Project?

 

00;06;08;21 - 00;06;41;06

VQ

It's ebbed and flowed. At some points you have ten people during extensive documentation process. During CA, I think we have about five people. It's particularly because it has extensive interiors. We've staffed sort of an architecture team as well as an interiors team, and then they also have taken on the furnishings and art for the project. So we have over 30,000 square feet of interior amenity with pools and meeting rooms and kids rooms, as well as some outdoor activities where we also collaborated with the landscape architects. So there's a lot of things going on.

 

00;06;41;09 - 00;06;43;06

DP

And how did your office get the job?

 

00;06;43;08 - 00;06;59;03

VQ

Well, we were selected from a RFP process with the client. They had tried to develop it into a different solutions in the past and weren't very happy with those studies. So they approached us in a feasibility concept phase to sort of see what they could do as of. Right.

 

00;06;59;06 - 00;07;00;27

DP

And did you guys know the clients?

 

00;07;01;00 - 00;07;27;12

VQ

We knew them. It's really our first project with them. We've heard of them before. The client is interesting in that they have a range of experiences of multifamily and hospitality projects in their portfolio and they're also client. That's up for a challenge. You know, the site dimensionally was challenged, the site conditions in terms of remediation of the industrial sites and also its waterfront access, those are all challenges to the design that they were up for.

 

00;07;27;14 - 00;07;33;25

DP

So tell us a little bit about the history of the location of the site. What was going on there before you guys got there?

 

00;07;33;28 - 00;08;39;17

VQ

The history of the site, you know, it's a long, narrow site. Our building massing is 100 feet in the north south direction. It's over 500 feet in the east west direction. So it's very distended and lengthened and narrowed. The original site was a one story warehouse, which was kind of the context of the neighborhood. I lived in that neighborhood many years ago, and that was the context.

 

The context is changing primarily because in a sort of Bloomberg era, there was a zoning plan, but then the 2008 crisis stalled those plans, and it took a while for that increased zoning and development to come to fruition. And so we were part of that increased zoning for the site. In terms of the massing, we wanted to take a sense of the character that was there and honor that.

 

Not all the projects that we see built really take that into account. And we were thinking, what is the context now and what was the context in the past? So we really thought about selecting a one story podium and selecting Brick as the foundation for that, and also being practical about the openings and where they're located.

 

00;08;39;20 - 00;08;45;24

DP

Right. So that's a good segue to my next question. So what was the scope and the programmatic requirements for the project?

 

00;08;45;27 - 00;09;00;14

VQ

For a residential project to build as of right and the emphasis for the target population would be families. So large units, lots of two bedroom and three bedroom units, a lot of outdoor access and the views because of its waterfront proximity.

 

00;09;00;17 - 00;09;25;13

DP

Yeah, the site is unbelievable. And you guys really take advantage of just about everything out there. It's a great project. So let's talk about the design. So first let's talk about the building stylistically. So to me it looks a lot like a very contemporary warehouse space, right? So there's lots of glass. It almost appears lantern like in the photos that I saw at dusk. It's beautiful.

 

00;09;25;16 - 00;09;53;28

VQ

The choice of materials was very specific. The neighborhood has a unique grid orientation to the world, and so it captures the light in the sunrise and sunset, in particular. The brick we chose to be a rough, molded brick with a dark mortar and the metal panel has a mica flake to it that captures the light and changes throughout the day.

 

So sometimes it looks orange and copper. Sometimes it actually looks bronze toned and it has a chocolate sienna undertones to it.

 

00;09;53;28 - 00;10;05;23

DP

I noticed that in the photographs that the metal definitely takes on a bunch of different colors. So let's back up a little bit. Let's talk about the project restrictions, zoning, any historical requirements for you guys?

 

00;10;05;26 - 00;10;56;16

VQ

So the site isn't within a landmark district, but as our office really emphasizes context in our practice. So even when there's not those kind of historical restrictions, we like to start there and say, what does it want to be? And so we actually decided early on that we would adopt the one story podium and also set back sooner than we actually needed to.

 

First, to take a cue from that one story warehouse context, but also how that kind of massing relates to the street and the experience of the street. It increases the light and air and allows for breezes to blow through. It also allows for multiple outdoor terracing to happen. So those units that aren't particularly high and don't have the same views can step out onto your terrace and see the water.

 

And so really maximizes the value and effectiveness and the quality of those spaces.

 

00;10;56;19 - 00;11;05;22

DP

So let's talk a little bit about the building and plans. I'm assuming it's along because the lots a  long rectangle, the building matches that although it steps back.

 

00;11;05;24 - 00;11;47;08

VQ

It steps back immediately after the first story. The first story is about 17 feet in height. And so there are some very high ceiling experiences there, ranging from 12 to 14 foot ceilings within the amenities alone. And that also gave us the room to deal with some of the flood constraints as well. Being that the site is adjacent to the East River the predicted flood zones right now are anywhere from 5 to 6 feet above grade. So that was a challenge and a constraint early on where we had to coordinate. We certainly decided we weren't going to excavate because of the high water table. So some of the functions that you would put in the cellar, we put a grade, but we often had to elevate the critical services six feet above where you normally would place them.

 

00;11;47;10 - 00;11;54;05

DP

So I'm curious, when you're digging that close to the water, do you get a lot of water, a lot of groundwater coming in when you're creating your foundations?

 

00;11;54;05 - 00;12;22;21

VQ

Yes, you do. Yes. Early on there was a lot of pile driving very deep anywhere from I would say 30 or 40 feet down. And those piles were linked up with large caps, pile caps and then mat foundations at the towers. The slab itself, because of, you know, you have to think more like a boat or a bathtub.

 

The slab itself was anywhere from 24 inches to 18 inches thick at various points throughout it. And it has to resist uplift.

 

00;12;22;23 - 00;12;28;07

DP

That's really interesting. So when you're driving piles and there's a lot of bedrock, how do you do that?

 

00;12;28;10 - 00;12;47;14

VQ

The nature of the historic waterfront is often landfill, so a lot of it is just trash or sediment over 200 years people just dump things in the river and it created a new shoreline, which was often the case, as you see in lower Manhattan as well. So we knew that we were going to have to go deep to hit rock.

 

00;12;47;20 - 00;12;50;29

DP

So you're driving the piles then 25 or 30 feet.

 

00;12;50;29 - 00;12;51;18

VQ

Exactly.

 

00;12;51;18 - 00;12;52;09

DP

I got it.

 

00;12;52;09 - 00;13;48;10

VQ

Yeah. And another challenge relating to the waterfront edge is we had to deal with actually coordinate with a marine architect because the edge condition was failing and we needed to remediate it. So we coordinated a new driving a new sheet edge along the shore to create that. The site actually is interesting in that it has a natural cove condition that other areas along the waterfront don't.

 

And so we recreated that in the remediation. But we also worked with the landscape architect to create this. We're obligated by zoning that create a setback for public access on the site. So they really leaned into that curved cove condition that's set back and stepped it down to the water gradually from grade and incorporated eco concrete blocks that have various pockets that allow kind of tide pool action to happen.

 

And so we thought about breaking down the shoreline a little bit and not just a hard edge.

 

00;13;48;12 - 00;13;57;21

DP

It sounds really interesting. I mean, when somebody owns a piece of property like that and it's really sitting on debris, in many cases, it's kind of unusual.

 

00;13;57;24 - 00;14;34;06

VQ

I mean, we tried to find opportunities to maximize the value of the site. With the two tower strategy. We put lots of valuable floor area up high and took advantage of the views. We made double the amount of corner units that you could have by having a two towers. We also separated them over 100 feet apart so that the West Tower really gets out there in front of other buildings that it's alongside.

 

The East Tower is set back for the east to kind of get around other buildings that could obscure it. And we were actually surprised at how good the views are as it was being built. We knew it was going to be good, but it actually turned out to be better than we anticipated.

 

00;14;34;09 - 00;14;41;08

DP

It's really beautiful about the design as the corners are opened up then to become porches, right? Terraces, is that correct?

 

00;14;41;10 - 00;15;04;06

VQ

That's right. This is part of that is a response to some zoning constraints is at a certain height you also had to step back in multiple directions. And one of the things that we like to do is incorporate our balconies into the building facade and not just look like appendages. So we really took advantage of that setback rule and created these covered protected balconies.

 

Also, it's quite windy, so that coverage helps screen it a little bit.

 

00;15;04;08 - 00;15;08;14

DP

So an open terrace meets the setback requirements then?

 

00;15;08;21 - 00;15;09;04

VQ

Yes.

 

00;15;09;07 - 00;15;13;25

DP

Wow, that's really interesting. So did you guys max out the building height then?

 

00;15;14;01 - 00;15;36;14

VQ

Yes, we had a R six zoning. We were adjacent to R eight. So there's some taller buildings in the surrounding area. But we did try to sort of maximize it. Part of also with the flood zoning, when you have extreme water table situation, you are allowed to increase up to a certain height. So we were able to utilize the various zoning restrictions to our benefit.

 

00;15;36;17 - 00;15;39;19

DP

So how long did the building review take with the city?

 

00;15;39;26 - 00;15;57;14

VQ

Well, certainly just even the public park portion we started in 2008. It probably took a year and a half to two years alone. At the same time, we were overlapping with our design and documentation, so it probably took another two years to really finish all the documentation.

 

00;15;57;17 - 00;16;09;00

DP

So let's talk a little bit more about the parameters for the building materials and the use of masonry, which from what I can tell from the photos is at the base and then the circulation tower, is that correct?

 

00;16;09;02 - 00;17;40;06

VQ

The circulation towers are actually stucco with a color to match the metal panel facade. They were really thought of as almost like a concrete massing for the podium. We selected a Glen-Gery Brick that was a molded modular brick. It has orange undertones and some brown tones as well along its finish, and it's a bit city, and we specifically selected it for its character.

 

It has texture, it catches the light in an interesting way. It's a very practical brick. And so we tried to think about just in the same way that we thought about the rest of the massing and even some of the interior design elements is to marry a practical industrial esthetic that was indigenous to the neighborhood, but also elevated and make it a bit of a luxurious esthetic as well as a hybrid.

 

So we selected the brick, we selected a dark mortar and did simple moves with the design in terms of let the program and the adjacencies define where those openings wanted to be, because again, 500 feet, we weren't over doing the modulation of that. We really wanted it to say this is where the windows want to be based off of the function of the plan.

 

And when we knew where those openings would be, we also decided upon simple detailing, corbelling of 1 to 2 inches stack stretcher, bond patterns, soldier brick patterns, which would have been indicative of the kind of twenties, thirties or earlier warehouse context. You know, again, just trying to tie it back to what would have been if it had been built 100 years ago.

 

00;17;40;08 - 00;17;50;25

DP

Well, I noticed there's a really pretty detail where you're setting the masonry back from the facade to create a reveal for the headers and for some of these openings.

 

00;17;50;28 - 00;18;03;17

VQ

Yes. And it creates a lot of interplay of light and shadow along the facade. And that was always thought about, you know, how do you deal with such a long facade that would have a lot of opacity to it, but create interest in that opacity.

 

00;18;03;19 - 00;18;05;17

DP

So did you guys draw the building in BIM?

 

00;18;05;17 - 00;18;06;17

VQ

Yes.

 

00;18;06;24 - 00;18;07;29

DP

You guys work in Revit?

 

00;18;08;04 - 00;18;10;12

VQ

Yeah, we're predominantly a Revit office.

 

00;18;10;14 - 00;18;19;08

DP

So the studies that you did initially, did you guys draw the whole building in 3D and then show the clients and so they got to see the model? Or did you guys build a physical model too?

 

00;18;19;10 - 00;18;43;16

VQ

We always start with the Revit process because it has its advantages, sort of quick moves and early viewing studies as well as planning. We did some early models, for the sales we did a full scale model of the whole building as well as the interiors. There's actually a drawer that pulls out of the base of the model and you can see all of the amenities articulated, which is incredible.

 

00;18;43;18 - 00;18;51;25

DP

Again, I'm curious how large of a set does a project like this create? How many pages just for architecturals?

 

00;18;51;27 - 00;19;11;26

VQ

That was always a challenge for the documentation was the East West Towers had their own articulations. Between the architectural division and the supporting engineering divisions, we had four volumes of documents just on drawings alone, and I want to say the architectural volume was easily 100 sheets or more unto itself.

 

00;19;11;28 - 00;19;24;27

DP

Another detail I really like is the exterior facade. So you made the piers and to some extent the floor slabs as they’re exposed on the exterior. It's not really a slab, it looks like steel. It's a really pretty detail.

 

00;19;24;29 - 00;19;50;24

VQ

Yeah, it's a simple C channel profile that's in ACM, Aluminum Composite Metal panel, and it's an open range screen. We really worked with our facade consultants and structural to simplify the detail as much as possible and maximize the windows. You know, again, this project, by its site positioning and daylighting it wants big windows. So we wanted to coordinate that with slab covers and the column covers.

 

00;19;50;26 - 00;20;01;15

DP

So could you give me more of an idea of how that open rain screen works? I mean, when I'm looking at the exterior photographs does not look like a rain screen at all. I mean, it looks like an enclosed system.

 

00;20;01;17 - 00;20;35;18

VQ

The profile clips the slab edge and tacked on to a fin that is part of the window wall extrusion. And that sort of stabilizes the top and bottom relationship and sets the datum for every floor and at every joints we leave it open behind that paneled system is a mineral wall assembly and waterproofing behind that and at the open joints, we coordinated with the shops to return the finish and bend, partly to stiffen the profile, but also finish it off and create a sense of closure.

 

00;20;35;20 - 00;20;40;20

DP

And what would be the advantage of doing a rain screen versus doing a closed system there?

 

00;20;40;22 - 00;20;56;05

VQ

It was more practical from an installation and sequencing standpoint and also just maintenance, you know, tall buildings, having to deal with caulking and repairing it later. It's a challenge and you have to think about that for clients’ maintenance. You know, it's a real concern.

 

00;20;56;07 - 00;21;32;06

DP

Yeah. I'm just getting myself familiar with rain screens. I'm behind residential work and we did a rain screen for my most recent home in New York State and was a real education. It's such an interesting system and I would say I think I tested on it for some CE units that I took maybe a couple of years ago and I thought, Wow, this is a really interesting idea where the facade is actually wide open in some ways and water's allowed just kind of move through it, dry back out again.

 

You're eliminating a lot of challenges long term by using rain screens.

 

00;21;32;08 - 00;22;01;14

VQ

I actually have an extensive experience from my school construction authority days of working on rain screens that we often would take existing schools that are 100 year old buildings that were solid wall assemblies, and we found water infiltration. We would take back the finish to the back up and create narrow cavity drainage plains with brick or precast or GFRC elements.

 

It's definitely in my wheelhouse to work in that context.

 

00;22;01;17 - 00;22;19;29

DP

It makes perfect sense to allow a wall to dry out rather than capture water behind the facades. All right. But it took us hundreds of years to figure this out. Very interesting. So you guys drew the building in BIM. You have the 3D model. How long have you guys been working in Revit?

 

00;22;20;01 - 00;22;22;00

VQ

15 to 20 years at least.

 

00;22;22;03 - 00;22;34;21

DP

Again, I'm kind of curious as an offshoot to this discussion. When you hire people, do you hire people who do not know how to use Revit? Maybe they've used Micro Station or they use ArchiCAD or AutoCAD and then you train them.

 

00;22;34;28 - 00;23;20;13

VQ

It's ever more common for them to have experiences these days. I actually didn't know Revit when I started, and that was a learning experience for me. You know, it has its pros and cons, you know, if you're an old school CAD person, but I value its ability to, you know, you move a wall, it moves everywhere. You don't have to constantly track that element.

 

And also when we're doing design options for large complicated projects, thinking about, well, what if the window appears or this dimension or that dimension, we can iterate and quickly deploy changes, you know, especially this day and age where you're dealing with value engineering, they come back with bids, you say, it's got to come out of somewhere. It's an important tool to be able to pivot and retool the design, adapt the design to accommodate these requirements.

 

00;23;20;15 - 00;24;10;27

DP

It's a really good point for those of you who don't know what BIM is, it's building information modeling, so you're giving lots of information up front to building parts like walls and plan, for example. And initially, at least in my experience, it takes a lot longer to draw something in the beginning, but you've got all that information in there.

 

So Vicente is explaining that what happens is when you need to make a change, the change is really quick because you're just changing one thing out of a series of pieces of information that you've already kind of filled in. So BIM has really changed the business over the last 15, 20 years. So do you guys learn anything interesting through the design and construction process? Maybe something you'd never dealt with before in terms of details or dealing with the client or the?

 

00;24;10;27 - 00;25;39;01

VQ

GC Well, certainly that flood design is evolving. We came up with some strategies that even the rules have changed since we started this project. So it's constantly evolving target and some of the forecasted flood elevations have changed across time. So that's something that's an ever evolving discipline of knowledge and thinking about active systems versus passive systems. You know, this building relies on a mixture of passive and active systems, some that the building is set up or either elevated spaces or the wall assemblies set up to resist water, the force of water in other elements, it's relying on staff.

 

We're trained to deploy solutions that are either barriers or stairs to reduce that access throughout the building. And that's a big challenge with any project that's in a flood zone is egress, space planning services and also mitigating cost. The developer and the clients and the residents ultimately will want to experience these views. But those views are difficult if we're anticipating flooding.

 

Nobody wants to have windows that are six feet off the ground. We were selective in where we put our efforts and said these areas are going to have the views. We're going to coordinate flood resistant glazing there. The same thought process at the commercial retail and lobby. You know, the places that it mattered. We wanted to maximize the glass. In other areas, we dialed it back down to really use opaque assemblies to articulate the design.

 

00;25;39;04 - 00;25;42;16

DP

So I mentioned deployable flood barriers. What is that?

 

00;25;42;18 - 00;26;21;26

VQ

I think of them like Lincoln Logs. Well, there's a range of options out there, but they are often aluminum extrusions that gasket together and stack along channels and they'll go to whatever height that is necessary. They often have back bracing or steel or aluminum sections. Those elements either are built into the facade already or tie back into anchor points that really transfer the loads to the structure.

 

It's a very complicated interaction and coordination of the design that you want these facade protection elements, the superstructure and waterproofing, you know, it all has to work and it takes a lot of effort.

 

00;26;21;28 - 00;26;25;28

DP

So what happens to that barrier when there is a flood? Do they break away?

 

00;26;26;00 - 00;26;27;17

VQ

They resist. They act as a wall.

 

00;26;27;17 - 00;26;28;21

DP

Resist. Okay. Yeah.

 

00;26;28;22 - 00;26;39;05

VQ

Normally they're stored in a closet until they're needed. The idea is if you have notice of an impending storm or hurricane, then you would deploy them in advance of the storm.

 

00;26;39;05 - 00;27;06;01

DP

Thus deployable. Yeah. Interesting. So Vicente, you're a relatively young architect. I say that because at one time I was a young architect and I used to tell my students that you were considered young at 40 or 50. I'm now 55, so please don't be offended by my comment. But based on what you know so far, do you have any words of advice for your younger self or even young architects like yourself just getting started, Not just getting started, but getting started.

 

00;27;06;08 - 00;27;41;19

VQ

I think curiosity and a willingness to learn a variety of things. Architecture is an interesting creative discipline because there's a lot of rigor and science and technology and law backed up into that knowledge. But it's also trying to solve a problem. You have to really embrace the learning curve of that and learning things that you may not have mastery of, but your organizing, those various constraints and knowledge is into a solution.

 

And I think that's, if you're enthusiastic and go with it and embrace it, I think you get a lot out of it.

 

00;27;41;22 - 00;27;57;05

DP

Yeah, I totally agree. I like to tell people architecture is a field where you have to know a lot about a lot. It's as simple as that. So, Vicente, it's been great to speak with you today. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about Morris Adjmi Architects and yourself?

 

00;27;57;11 - 00;28;05;26

VQ

You can go to MA.com, our website. You can also check out The Huron Instagram. You can also visit the site. It's a beautiful building.

 

00;28;06;02 - 00;28;08;18

DP

Yeah, it's a great project. Well, thank you very much, Vicente.

 

00;28;08;22 - 00;28;12;23

VQ

Thank you.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;13

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;15 - 00;00;36;09

Rob Clocker (RC)

This collection of blocks has several landscaped alleys to help connect people from front to back. So having pedestrian connections through the block were an important part of the planning of the project. The project itself is a fairly typical four and five stories of housing overtop of a parking podium kind of housing project, which you see all over the country.

 

But we had hoped to blend it in with the neighborhood, of course, and so had to find ways to tie it together.

 

00;00;36;11 - 00;03;34;04

DP

This is my guest, Rob Clocker. I'll share more about him shortly in this episode from The Design Vault. We highlight Rob's project, 55 Brighton Avenue in Boston, Massachusetts. 55 Brighton is a mixed use commercial project that marks the completion of the Packard Crossing housing development in the Allston neighborhood of Boston. The building transforms a once underutilized site that previously housed retail and parking lots.

 

Transform the site into a vibrant and sustainable addition to the community. The architecture pays homage to the area's manufacturing heritage. The design concept reflects the vibrant streetscape patterns and automotive detailing. The building contains nearly 100,000 square feet of finished space, with an additional 70,000 square feet allocated to structured parking. The project reinterprets the rhythms and scale of the surrounding block, while paying homage to the area's automotive heritage.

 

The facade, with its distinctive folded fan like design, draws nostalgic inspiration from the wing tails of iconic 1950s automobiles. This design move prompted by the adjacent historic Packard Manufacturing facility. The brick details tie into the fabric of the neighborhood and add warmth and familiarity. While metal panels at the top floor create a dynamic visual contrast to the brick facade.

 

The complex embraces sustainable design strategies and materials such as low flow fixtures, solar panels and groundwater recharge. Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Hi. Rob Clocker holds a master of architecture degree from MIT and an undergraduate degree in architecture from the University of Virginia. Previously a senior associate at Perkins and Will in San Francisco. He's now a vice president and managing principal at Hacin, an award winning interdisciplinary architecture and design firm in Boston.

 

With 30 years of experience and award winning renovation and new construction projects. Rob's worked on buildings from office towers to land ports of entry. During his time in Hacin, he completed the Whitney Hotel in Beacon Hill, The IIDA New England award winning ideas. Cambridge Public Garden Townhouse and 55 Brighton Avenue. He's also managing the ongoing mixed use development at 41 Berkeley Street.

 

As an advocate for stewardship of the built environment, he's spoken on adaptive reuse and sustainable design. Rob is a registered architect, LEED accredited professional and member of the Ipswich Zoning Board of Appeals. So welcome, Rob. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Hacin Architecture and Design firm in Boston. So where are you guys located in the city?

 

What's the size of the firm? How long have you been around and what type of architectural and design work do you do?

 

00;03;34;07 - 00;04;42;16

RC

Thank you, Doug. It's really great to be here with you. Hacin is, as you mentioned, an interdisciplinary design firm where 35 people we take the word interdisciplinary pretty seriously. We have architects, we have interior designers, we have visual and graphic designers. And we think of that because as a concept driven firm, we like to take the idea of the design all the way from the outside of the architecture to the inside and throughout to the entire experience.

 

The firm is located in the south end of Boston, which is one of Boston's many historic neighborhoods. It was founded 30 years ago by our founding principal. David Hacin started at his dining room table and gradually built up to the 35 people we have today. And all that time has been in the South end. So in some sense, we're a neighborhood architecture firm.

 

In another sense, we think we've learned how to build buildings and do design in places that people love in ways that they recognize. We like to joke that the buildings we build are ones we ourselves are going to have to live with ten, 20, 30 years from now.

 

00;04;42;19 - 00;04;47;03

DP

So you were at Perkins and well, for a little while and then ultimately found Hacin.

 

00;04;47;05 - 00;05;36;12

RC

It's a little bit of a convoluted story but yes, those are the facts. My career trajectory had me moving across the country four times to California and back to Boston, and I did each of those moves twice. But the last time when I was in California, I worked with Perkins and Will, and that experience was quite formative in terms of some of the things we may be talking about today because we were an outgrowth of another local firm in San Francisco, which did a lot of adaptive reuse work.

 

And in that role, I was able to learn surprisingly quite a bit about Brick, even though we were in San Francisco, where you don't think of that as a building material. And there's quite a bit of historic architecture out there, as you might imagine. So learning to work in that context set the stage for some of the projects I do today.

 

00;05;36;15 - 00;05;47;25

DP

So you've been Hacin how seen relative to all of the other things that you've done in the practice of architecture?

 

00;05;47;27 - 00;06;31;12

RC

My current role, which is relatively new one, starting as of last year, I'm managing principal of the firm, our founding principal, after 30 years, and a lot of growth, decided that it would be a good idea to get a new batch of principals. So we have five of us now, in addition to David Hacin and as the managing principal.

 

My job, of course, is to try to help us stay focused on the business side of the practice, which, as you may know, as an architect, isn't the most fun part. However, it does matter tremendously, and I like to think of it as fundamental to helping us do the great design work we do, because ultimately, if we don't do good business work, we're not going to be able to do great design work.

 

00;06;31;15 - 00;06;37;25

DP

So true. So let's dig in here and talk a little bit about the project. How did you guys get the work?

 

00;06;37;27 - 00;07;38;12

RC

Sure. As with many projects in Boston, it's a very much relationship based city. This owner, the Hamilton Company, is old company and one of the largest landlords in Boston founded by Harold Brown. And in that very neighborhood that the project exists, we developed a relationship with them and they reached out to us specifically because they understood that we knew how to fit new buildings into existing neighborhoods, as well as to help owners like this company navigate the sometimes complex approvals process, which you find in many East Coast cities.

 

And Boston is certainly one that has its web of interested parties in every project. The Hamilton Company, however, because of being a longstanding company, has very good relationships with the neighborhood, with neighborhood association owns as well as the city. And so it was a good partnership in coming up with a design that would appeal to a lot of different factions.

 

00;07;38;14 - 00;07;45;19

DP

So tell us a little bit about the site, the history of the location, what was there and what you guys ultimately built.

 

00;07;45;21 - 00;08;45;14

RC

This site, which is an area called Packard's Crossing, which is so named because originally it was a location of a Packard car manufacturing plant, is a mixed use site. It has a lot of Boston rowhouses that go further down the street from our location. But the location of the particular project did have some of those more industrial uses.

 

And in the more recent years it had been transformed somewhat into parking lots and some low rise retail in ways that weren't necessarily sensitive to the neighborhood. As it happens, one of those buildings was the owners primary headquarters, and so it was a very near and dear to them that they do something on this site, which was good.

 

And because this was their headquarters, they owned numerous properties that adjoins. So they undertook a master planning process with us to think about how they could not only develop a 55 Brighton but 83 Gardiner, which is nearby and tie it all together in a sensitive way.

 

00;08;45;17 - 00;08;51;19

DP

So what was the ultimate scope and what were the programmatic requirements for the project? The building you designed.

 

00;08;51;21 - 00;09;52;29

RC

The program for 55 Brighton, on the face of it, is a fairly straightforward program. It's 77 rental units, a housing and parking garage for that housing as well as retail that would line Brighton Avenue, which is a mixed use street. The more interesting or maybe effective overlay of that program is that this collection of blocks has several landscaped alleys to help connect people from front to back.

 

The streets in this neighborhood aren't necessarily as frequent as some city streets are. And so having pedestrian connections through the block were an important part of the planning of the project, as well as part of the approvals for the project. And the project itself is a fairly typical four and five stories of housing overtop of a parking podium kind of housing project, which you see all over the country.

 

But we had hoped to blend it in with the neighborhood, of course, and so had to find ways to tie it together.

 

00;09;53;01 - 00;10;20;18

DP

Yeah, it's an interesting building. So you guys had to do a bunch of things with the architect. Sure. You used a lot of masonry out there, various colors, but the brick patterning and specifically stylistically the building facade as it sort of peels away in a number of locations. Very interesting. So the building's contemporary, particularly the cantilevered folding panels, and yet you utilize brick and various traditional patterns and colors.

 

So tell us a little bit about that.

 

00;10;20;21 - 00;12;26;05

RC

Sure. Our approach to the design of the facade, especially on Brighton Avenue, was the kind we take to many of our projects, which is to look carefully at the context. We look at not only what's built today, but what was built in the neighborhood previously and of course, like many of these traditional neighborhoods, there's a strong rhythm of bays and of brick along the street, which on one hand we wanted to pick up some kind of rhythm, but on the other hand, we certainly didn't want to just mimic it.

 

That's always the challenge we have as designers is how do we build something for today in a neighborhood from yesterday? So what we chose to do in this case, as you mentioned, is we peel the brick facade back in a regular rhythm of bays, which echoes those bays further down the street. But we do it in a way that isn't just your traditional symmetrical bay.

 

It lifts the facade apart in a sense. So when you're looking at it from one direction, you see a rhythm of brick bays. When you look at it from the other direction, it looks like a number of vertical metal turrets that are more reflective of what you see beyond because in that direction you're looking towards downtown, where you see a lot of the towers of downtown Boston.

 

So that was an important design aspect as well that you had a different experience of this building from one direction than you do from the other. And then one other aspect of that design choice has to do with how brick is used today. We no longer build load bearing brick walls. There's a lot of reasons for that, as much as we love them, but there are many, many load bearing brick walls in Boston.

 

So when we peel these elements back, we're just using face brick cavity wall construction like you see on all contemporary construction. But we wrapped it around, so it's the thickness of a load bearing wall, but you can still see that it's suspended in there. It's a little bit of a tongue in cheek acknowledgment of it's both symbolic of a load bearing material, but also it's being used in a way that's contemporary as a way to clad the building and give it a sense of identity.

 

00;12;26;08 - 00;12;37;26

DP

So let's back up just for a second. I always like to ask the architects about the project restrictions they had in regard to zoning or historical requirements. Could you talk a little bit about that?

 

00;12;37;28 - 00;12;45;19

RC

This project, like everywhere in Boston, as I mentioned, we have a robust approvals process for any larger projects.

 

00;12;45;19 - 00;12;50;06

DP

I like the word robust, it's very respectful.

 

00;12;50;13 - 00;13;49;06

RC

All the intentions are good. Sometimes it can become complex. Of course, this project is larger than would have normally been allowed by the underlying zoning, so it went through this process to approve a larger building and part of those approvals then have a lot to do with review of the design to make sure that the design is going to mitigate the scale of the building fit into the neighborhood in ways that we hope we've been able to be successful here, and that also there are elements to the design which contribute to the neighborhood, which gets back to some of those connections in the landscaping that I mentioned.

 

And as it happens on top of the rear of the building on one level, up on the parking is an extensively landscaped courtyard which is made for the residents of the building. So to this approval, we of course, had to meet with neighborhood groups. We had to go through numerous public hearings and we think we reached a place where all parties felt like there was a good compromise with this building.

 

00;13;49;08 - 00;13;51;14

DP

So was there a historical review.

 

00;13;51;20 - 00;14;02;26

RC

In this particular neighborhood? Interestingly enough, there was not a historic district review. This piece of Boston, although it has a lot of buildings from long ago, is not a designated landmark district.

 

00;14;02;28 - 00;14;27;09

DP

Interesting. Yeah, I thought the notion of showing this facade as it peels away as a thick masonry wall, this kind of tongue in cheek reference to historic architecture is really interesting. A great idea. Tell us a little bit about the building and plan. It looks like a giant rectangle, and yet you've done an awful lot with the facade and the undulations in the forms.

 

00;14;27;11 - 00;16;39;13

RC

That's one simple thing about the building is that the site is a rectangle, which we don't get a lot of those in Boston. So we were excited about that. But the housing portion component is an L-shape because as you know, with multifamily housing, there's a dimension which plays itself out really well. The rectangle of the footprint of the building has to do with the parking.

 

So the front of that is lined with retail on the building lobby. And then above that is the two lengths of the L-shaped housing. What we did with that then is to articulate those different volumes. That's also where we turn to the brick patterning to identify the different areas of the building. And we had to do this though, within some constraints of course, because this is a rental building and the owners wanted to keep the housing reasonably affordable.

 

So all of the brick we use is actually just standard modular brick, which means it's the kind of brick that we love because it's easy to lay out. It creates an eight inch by eight inch grid on the building and to be creative with modular brick, we had to do things like turn the brick on its side, create soldier courses and find ways to push the brick inward and outwards to create shadow lines.

 

And one of the aspects of these fins on the front of the building that we've been talking about is that they actually curve outward from the main facade. But we wanted to achieve this curve without buying any special bricks. And when the contractors did their mock up and brought it out in the sun, everybody to our horror, recognized that it was creating all kinds of jagged shadows because the bricks were rectangular and they were trying to create a curve in order to help them with that.

 

We actually went back to our drawings. We laid out the coursing of those brick courses and created them some full sized brick causing diagrams, which the Masons then used. They relayed out the mockups and it came out looking smooth. And this was one of those cases where what we love about Brick is it depends so much on the Masons and their desire and skill to make things work.

 

And that back and forth really, I think made the building much better.

 

00;16;39;16 - 00;17;04;29

DP

So let's start with the parameters for building materials. When you guys got rolling, did you just decide, Well, Boston's got a lot of bricks, so that's what we're going to use for the majority of the building. And then talk a little bit more about some of these coursing tapes that you use, because I did see some soldier coursing.

 

I saw some regular type of courses. And then, of course, there are all kinds of strategies to create shadow lines in the facade underneath the windows, etc..

 

00;17;05;01 - 00;18;17;23

RC

Yeah, the decision to use brick, as you say, dug was a pretty foregone conclusion. We were working in a block where all of the existing buildings, the historic buildings were brick, and it's the kind of material that really helps bring identity to the building in a way that people feel like fits with Boston. This was an idea that sometimes we fight as designers, we think we want to do something new in this city that's all made out of bricks.

 

But I think over time we've come to recognize that the fact of Brick in Boston is one that's time tested. It's one that brings identity to the place. And so we accepted it fairly quickly and then set out to figure out, well, how do we create different proportions, different forms, and articulate the building with these bricks as well as bring different colors to it.

 

So it's not all just red brick. We did use a much darker brick for the base of the building, which helps ground the building helps those bays feel like they're floating up above. And then in the courtyard we use some yellow brick, which is not what you see from the street. It gives you some variation for the expression of the building and also brightens up that space.

 

00;18;17;25 - 00;18;24;20

DP

Could you tell us a little bit more about the coursing types and the strategies to create shadow lines in the facade?

 

00;18;24;23 - 00;19;10;10

RC

Yes, we were constrained to using just regular shaped bricks. One of the coursing techniques we used was to help with the rhythm of the windows of the building. With housing, you get repetitive windows because we want to use the same kind of windows and we have repetitive apartment units. However, we wanted to create some different scale to those windows, and we use this by creating brick panels which frame some of the windows and help the windows appear to create larger patterns on the facade.

 

And in these brick patterns, we simply stacked the bricks and then pushed every other brick inward by about an inch, which created this nice textured shadow line, which gave it a little bit of depth similar to the depth the window had. That was one of the techniques we used to help give the building some life.

 

00;19;10;12 - 00;19;28;08

DP

So it's also interesting you guys ended up doing mock ups, which we all as architects end up seeing in the field an awful lot of times when we're using a lot of masonry or when things get complex. How did you do the drawings? The architectural drawings, were there 3D, was it BIM modeling, was it 2D?

 

00;19;28;10 - 00;20;38;26

RC

On this project, like many of our projects, we have both a design model and then a construction model. So early on we built the building and sketch up that lets us study forms colors fairly quickly and do variations to help dial in some of the aspects of the building which are going to be most conducive to the design as well as lets us be flexible with some of the city approvals processes when different requirements are brought up around the design development phase, though, we certainly built the same model in Revit and that becomes the actual construction model and Revit is where we really get into the brick detailing.

 

We don't draw every single brick, although we sometimes like our clients to think we're doing that. We use a combination of patterns on the surface of the model, which are very accurate to the brick module with certain areas where we will go in and manually layout the coursing because we know it needs to work in a certain way.

 

And so we do love using these tools. They really help us make sure that what we draw is what the Masons are going to be able to build.

 

00;20;38;28 - 00;21;01;25

DP

Yeah, I was really surprised when I was looking at the photographs, the peeling facade, if you will, these fan like projections. There was one photograph I looked at and you can actually start to see the curve the way the brick is manipulated in the facade. So it's not a hard line. I did not expect that when I saw that photograph.

 

That must have been really interesting to see worked out in the field.

 

00;21;01;27 - 00;22;01;22

RC

It was very interesting to see worked out in the field. That curve, however simple it seemed to us, was actually somewhat difficult for the Masons to achieve. They did do a mock up of that curve, which was not successful initially because when they laid out that mock up and put it in the sun, we saw immediately that the corners of the bricks were shadowing over top of each other, that they were struggling to make sure the crossing was smooth.

 

And so we went back to our drawings and we laid out each course a brick for them and printed a full sized drawing of that, causing to have them give that a try because we use the geometry of the curve to lay out where the corners should fall. Then when the Masons used that template and rebuilt the mockup, it actually came out quite smooth, which is the result you see today.

 

And we're actually kind of excited because that's a 20 degree change in plain between the face of the building and those projections, and it's achieved in two and a half courses of brick.

 

00;22;01;25 - 00;22;03;16

DP

My gosh, that's incredible.

 

00;22;03;19 - 00;22;08;04

RC

Flat bricks too. So we didn't have to buy curved bricks, which nobody likes to do.

 

00;22;08;06 - 00;22;16;15

DP

Did you do that by making the radius larger for that curve rather than having a smaller radius? Am I understanding that correctly?

 

00;22;16;17 - 00;22;37;28

RC

It was almost simpler than that. The radius didn't change. It's just which parts of the brick touched the radius needed to be adjusted because the Masons were having the corners and the flats of the bricks that were of course with each other overlapping in a way that cast shadows. And if we just moved those back, the shadows faded away.

 

00;22;38;04 - 00;22;44;01

DP

Very cool. So how many people were on the team working on the building over time?

 

00;22;44;03 - 00;23;10;16

RC

From the start of the project, we had just a couple of people. We had our project manager, Jeff Brown, as well as a couple of junior designers helping with the various models and presentations. By the time we got to CDs, there were five of us putting the drawings together and then for construction it was down back to just two of us getting through the various needs of the construction site.

 

00;23;10;18 - 00;23;14;23

DP

And how long was the process start to finish, including reviews.

 

00;23;14;25 - 00;23;42;12

RC

These kind of projects, tt's always interesting to answer that question because we've been working on this site with this owner for over ten years. This project was in the queue to it's the biggest one on the site, but it was one of the last ones we did with them. So the early ideas for it were probably seven or eight years ago.

 

But by the time we started the actual design, that took a little over a year and a half, then the construction took about two and a half years.

 

00;23;42;14 - 00;23;51;03

DP

So I love to ask architects if there was anything interesting through the design and construction process that you guys learned that was kind of new to you?

 

00;23;51;05 - 00;24;55;27

RC

Yeah, I think this project probably one of the more interesting and challenging but creative aspects of the project is that this client is their own developer and their own contractor. They are the ones who both financed the building and built the building, but they did hire us to design the building and of course hired the subcontractors to build the building with them.

 

But there were many times when you're working with a client who is building their own buildings that they are in a hurry because they figured they know what they're doing and they want to move forward and so very often we would find ourselves kind of rushing to stay, keep up with them. And what I think was an important lesson for us or something we were glad about is that we did take the time to do a really strong set of drawings during the design phase so that every time the client tried to get ahead of us, we had a good set of documents to help them not get into trouble.

 

That's not always the case. Sometimes clients will hurry you through the design with the thought that during construction you can figure out some more of the details.

 

00;24;56;00 - 00;25;00;24

DP

So the project wasn't bid out then to a contractor or it was?

 

00;25;00;27 - 00;25;11;02

RC

The project was not bid out to a general contractor because the general contractor was the client. However, they did bid out all of the different trades, including the masonry trades.

 

00;25;11;04 - 00;25;15;01

DP

So it was an extraordinarily thorough set by the time you guys were done.

 

00;25;15;08 - 00;25;19;17

RC

We did have a very strong set of drawings which always makes us happy and protects us.

 

00;25;19;19 - 00;25;32;24

DP

Makes things a little easier down the road. So, Rob, you've been an architect for a while. Based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for your younger self or even young architects coming down the pike?

 

00;25;32;27 - 00;25;56;13

RC

Sure. I think one of the pieces of advice I have learned over the career is it really matters to trust in the simplicity of design and to keep things basic. You may think, as I did as a young designer, that you need to add a lot of ideas and things like Brick are boring. But actually if you just stick with the basics, you can come up with quite an elegant solution.

 

00;25;56;15 - 00;26;33;06

DP

Yeah, I always find that interesting, this idea that when you have limitations or parameters, many times young people think, Well, I'm not going to be able to do anything creative inside of this notion that things should be simple or minimal in some way. And yet I think that is the key to creating things that have never been done before.

 

Perhaps I love this idea that when I'm given lots of restrictions, I still have to be, I still want to be creative. So I think that ties a little bit into what you just said.

 

00;26;33;09 - 00;26;54;11

RC

I completely agree. I think something else we find about trying to stick with the basics is very often when you're trying to tell a story and come up with a concept which other people can understand, you really have to stick to the story and stick to the basics. And so these rules were made for a reason and they're really great to flex and learn from.

 

00;26;54;14 - 00;27;03;24

DP

Well, Rob, thank you very much for being with us today. And thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about Hacin Architecture and Design and yourself?

 

00;27;03;26 - 00;27;21;20

RC

Thank you, Doug. It's been a great pleasure to be here today. And you can go to www.Hacin.com to learn about us or come to Boston's South End. And we're always happy to give people a tour of both our projects and a lot of the great historic architecture in Boston.

 

00;27;21;22 - 00;27;27;28

DP

Well, thanks again, Rob. Beautiful project. Congratulations. And we'll see you around Boston.

 

00;27;28;01 - 00;27;31;10

RC

Thank you, Doug.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;02 - 00;00;05;13

Doug Pat (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;16 - 00;00;27;11

Tom Loftus (TL)

So we really had to be mindful of availability of product and the budget. So this is what started driving us to start playing with different bonding patterns. If we stack the brick one way versus another way, if we do a running bond versus a stack bond versus a Flemish bond, how can we play around with our stacking patterns and try to make something unique?

 

00;00;27;13 - 00;02;46;23

DP

This is my guest, Tom Loftus. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we highlight Tom's 389 Weirfield Project in Brooklyn, New York. 389 Weirfield in Brooklyn is a 12 story 50,000 square foot rental project consisting of 66 residential units, a common roof deck, library and cafe. The building was constructed along with a second at 378 Weirfield just across the street.

 

The building features a very unique singular masonry facade we'll discuss today. The sole decorative facade is done in undulating rail like bricks, which is in a creative vertical design. The bricks are dark and called Ebonite Smooth. They protrude in patterns at equally spaced cadence as the facade climbs. The windows are set apart from the vertical masonry bands with frames of varying height, which capture the windows between the horizontal spans. The singular brick facade was a unique way of setting apart a building that might otherwise be much like any other.

 

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Tom Loftus has a bachelor degree in architecture from New York Institute of Technology. He also has a certificate in business management from Cornell University and is a licensed architect in New York.

 

Tom's first exposure to working in the architectural field came from a job in wood frame construction. After a number of years working in Westchester County, he brings over 20 years of project management experience to outgoing architects. As studio director, he has extensive knowledge and experience in project management, schematic design, design, development, construction drawings, design quality and project construction.

 

He's also a leader in building and maintaining client relationships, managing teams’ workloads, plus client and consultant coordination. So welcome, Tom. It's nice to have you with us today. So tell us a little bit about Aufgang Architects in Suffern New York. So where are you guys located in Suffern? What's the size of the firm? How long has it been around and what kind of work do you guys do?

 

00;02;47;01 - 00;03;37;20

TL

Great, first and foremost. Thanks a lot, Doug, for having me on the podcast today. I'm really excited to be here. So we're located here in downtown Suffern, right down the street from the train station pretty close to central Manhattan. So our firm is about 50 people right now. We primarily do residential work. I'd say about 90% of our work is in the residential field.

 

We do everything from low rise to high rise buildings, primarily in the five boroughs. But we also have projects in the tri state area and a few scattered around the country as well. A lot of those projects are mixed use with commercial on the first, second or few floors and then residential apartments above. The residential work that we do ranges in everything from luxury condos all the way to homeless shelters and really a range of everything in between.

 

00;03;37;22 - 00;03;39;28

DP

So how long has Aufgang Architects been around?

 

00;03;40;05 - 00;04;19;22

TL

Outgoing has been around. I think we're going about 50 years now. Ari is the third owner of the company, and when I started, I worked together with Ari and our former principal, Hugo, and they partnered for a while and he had also taken over the firm from someone else. So probably in the early seventies, if I have my history of the firm correct.

 

We started in Rockland County doing small scale residential rehab work and grew in time and in size with our clients and our work type from one partner to the next, and really have kept our foot in our roots in residential and then grown laterally in the industry.

 

00;04;19;25 - 00;04;27;22

DP

Tom, tell us a little bit about yourself. How long have you been practicing architecture and your role as studio director?

 

00;04;27;25 - 00;05;16;29

TL

Sure. It feels like forever. Honestly, every once in a while I wonder, am I still really doing this? But I've been in the architecture field now just a little over 20 years, and I started working in Westchester County. Small scale wood frame, residential. It was a natural stepping stone for me. After I got out of high school, I thought I want to be a framer.

 

And after getting really tired of carrying three quarter inch plywood up a ladder, I said, Nope, time to go back to school and study architecture. And from there I worked at a variety of firms in Manhattan, in Westchester County, doing a variety of different work. And when I found this firm, the scale work that we were doing, the residential work, it tied into something I loved with my single family housing experience.

 

It kind of stuck and I ended up staying here for quite a while.

 

00;05;17;01 - 00;05;23;25

DP

It's a long time practicing as an architect. I kind of say the same thing about or to myself about how long it's been.

 

00;05;23;27 - 00;06;23;12

TL

Sure, I've really grown in the company here. It's been a fantastic partnership with Ari. When I started, I came in really as an assistant project manager. A lot of my experience was not relative to the scale of the projects we were doing, although in other firms I was working in a bit of a leadership role running point on smaller scale projects, so it took a little time to learn the ropes, if you will, in the different construction types.

 

And I've moved up into the role of studio director now, so I work very closely with our senior management and the rest of our senior staff looking at our workload, our resource management, project proposals, client relationships and really stay involved with the team from the very start of the project until close out to handle the day to day operations of the office as a whole.

 

Ari, myself and our controller meet frequently to talk about some of the more boring business side of things and then the more fun happens working with the architects on the day to day and the projects.

 

00;06;23;15 - 00;06;33;19

DP

So let's dig in here and talk about this very interesting facade of yours. How did your office get the project, or is this a project that the office created?

 

00;06;33;21 - 00;07;57;02

TL

Yeah, this was actually an interesting project that came at a time when everything started shutting down right at the start of the COVID pandemic. And we had a really good recommendation from a long time client that we had worked with, and we had met a new client remotely who was involved on the construction side of things, and we hit it off.

 

We started talking and it was the first time ever that I met someone virtually and had meetings like this on screens, and we were trying to build a new professional working relationship. So it was very unique in the way that the project started. And again, we do a lot of our work really based on recommendations. We really pride ourselves in building good relationships with our client base, and that's really how the project got started.

 

They had this unique property in Bushwick and if you know the area in Brooklyn at all, it's a lot of small scale row housing, if you will, maybe 3 to 4 storeys and there really aren't too many open lots. And in this particular project it was unique. There was a large portion of the lot that had an easement that couldn't be built on it, and it provided a good amount of air rights which allowed us to follow the zoning path to do a much taller building than you usually would see in this neighborhood.

 

Most of the buildings were very close together, and that's really how it started and how the project grew and how we ended up with a 12 storey building in the middle of Bushwick.

 

00;07;57;05 - 00;08;04;19

DP

So did you guys know right away that you were going to be able to make a tall building there, or did it take a little bit of examination first?

 

00;08;04;21 - 00;08;48;13

TL

It took a little bit of examination. Usually what we do as architects is we really try to help guide our clients to bring their projects to fruition. This is the property I have. What can you build? How much can you build? There are two different zoning parts you can follow, primarily three different zoning parts in New York City that will help you establish the bulk, the height, the size of the building.

 

So we'll study that first and foremost with our clients and present them the different options. And based on the geometry of this lot, when we saw the potential to get a little height on this building, be separated from the other surrounding residential buildings, it gave them a nice opportunity to have a building with some great potential for views in an otherwise low height area.

 

00;08;48;15 - 00;08;53;12

DP

So what was the scope and the programmatic requirements for the project once you got rolling?

 

00;08;53;14 - 00;09;32;03

TL

Typically and specifically to this project, our scope was everything from working with the development team to help them flush out the parameters of their funding program. So when you work with different agencies in New York City and in the state and you're following certain guidelines to provide certain square footages and distribution of units, we work right at the very beginning with them to help them find the right mix and size of units, right with the development team.

 

From there, we work through design and construction administration all the way until the close of the project. So we really gave soup to nuts services here. Full scope on the building.

 

00;09;32;05 - 00;09;48;24

DP

So let's talk a little bit about the building design stylistically. So you guys designed quite a unique facade, while the other three facades, from what I can tell from the photos, are relatively subdued. Tell us about the main idea behind this.

 

00;09;48;26 - 00;11;17;22

TL

First and foremost, we love Brick. Brick as an architect, for us, it's really a timeless material and it's a durable material and it fits in really well to so many different urban fabrics in so many different places. In my opinion, what made 389 unique was the timing that this project was happening. It was happening at a time where the future was uncertain.

 

We didn't know what was going to come of this pandemic. We had to be incredibly mindful of the budget. Many times we like to create building facades that are two different materials having a nice dialog or different color bricks. So we really had to be mindful of availability of product and the economics, the budget, and really try to come up with something that would be unique but be something that the client could achieve.

 

So this is what started driving us to start playing with different bonding patterns if we stacked the brick one way versus another way, if we do a running bond versus a stack bond versus a Flemish bond, how can we play around with our stack in patterns and try to make something unique? So that was really what started pushing us in this direction of going with a single color brick and then really focusing on how to find a challenge enough for the mason that they don't hate us and say these are architects of the worst.

 

Have something be achievable for them. But that also will give a nice unique context to the neighborhood.

 

00;11;17;25 - 00;11;24;28

DP

Were there any aesthetic reviews of the building before you guys got rolling with the city?

 

00;11;24;28 - 00;11;49;21

TL

With the city for this particular project, there were no agencies on the city or state side that had any reason to opine on the design. We were not going for any variances. We didn't really have to go to the community board, although we did not need their aesthetic approvals. It is something that we're always mindful of working within the urban fabric and how it's going to lend itself to the context of the neighborhood is always an important consideration of ours.

 

00;11;49;23 - 00;12;01;09

DP

So let's back up just a little bit. So the building plan, are we talking rectangle, square, relatively straightforward. Then of course, there's parking on the site. You had said that there was a portion of the site that you could not build on.

 

00;12;01;11 - 00;13;07;01

TL

That's correct. So for this particular massing to make this building work, the footprint was rather small. It actually made a very efficient floor plate with a very tight core of stairs, elevator and corridor, and then apartments around all sides of that. So it really became a very compact, high efficiency floor plate with very little loss factor. And it was something that we were able to just work all the way up the building.

 

So there were quite a bit of revisions back and forth, variations that we had worked on to find the right mix and balance of that to fit within the envelope. The same thing then translated to the facade a bit earlier we were talking about what did the design iterations look like there, through the whole process of finding the right solution and the facade design that we felt was the right match for this building.

 

We did digital 3D models, plenty of sketches and even on site mockups working together with the Masons saying, We know you can do this, we believe in you, please don't kill us. And did plenty of mock ups there to really work it out.

 

00;13;07;03 - 00;13;11;25

DP

Was it a challenge finding a good mason, or did you guys have somebody lined up right off the bat?

 

00;13;11;27 - 00;14;04;09

TL

I think that's really one of the keys. You have to have really good subs. So whatever the type of work you're doing in this case, the Masons, you need to have a good working relationship with them. And often it's the architect working directly with the general contractor. But in these cases we invited the Masons into the architecture meetings, we invited them into the AOC meetings towards the end and said, Look, let's work through some of these details.

 

Let's talk through it. How is this going to work? It wasn't incredibly complex or challenging, but we wanted to make sure that the person who was directing their team to install the Brick really felt confident that they could achieve what we were looking for. We never wanted to come out on site and say, This is all wrong. That's not what we want to do.

 

And I really think engaging with those professionals early on is important to try to get the end result that you're looking for.

 

00;14;04;12 - 00;14;16;20

DP

Yeah, we try to bring in a contractor at schematic design. Once we wrap up schematic design, we have them price the project. This is in high and residential work that I do. So single family homes.

 

00;14;16;22 - 00;14;33;09

TL

Right? And in this case we didn't have a mason lined up. We didn't have a recommendation. The developer slash contractor, they were one and the same here. They had already had an existing relationship with this Mason and we started just working with them early on in the process.

 

00;14;33;11 - 00;14;54;17

DP

So could you do your best to describe the evolution of the design of that facade and then try to describe the facade? I'm going to encourage our listeners to go to the Glen-Gery site and take a look at some of these photographs because it's really striking. I've never seen anything like it. It's a great idea. The clients must have been thrilled when you presented the drawings.

 

00;14;54;19 - 00;17;33;18

TL

Thank you very much for that. We've seen a lot of example of brick facade that has quite a bit of movement in it, and these brick facades more often than not, are panelized prefab, and that's a way that you can achieve quite a bit of movement with brick using this idea of this undulation and this movement in the brick as an inspiration.

 

That's what triggered us to start thinking about how a brick pattern, the stacking pattern, really might help us achieve what we wanted to do here. So if our listeners are familiar with Brick parents, which I hope they are, we're in a brick podcast, we utilized a Flemish bond pattern and a running bond pattern. So the Flemish bond pattern has a standard brick with the long face.

 

The following brick is then rotated 90 degrees with the short face and the pattern is repeated. Taking this idea of combining a Flemish bond pattern with a running bond pattern, we now have these bricks that are half size, if you will, square proportion to create the movement and the undulation throughout the facade. We detailed a Flemish bond pattern with a large number of running bond, then a increasing increment of Flemish bond and a decreasing increment to running bond.

 

So we took the pattern and as you got closer to the center of the pattern we created, you had a higher frequency of Flemish bond. And as you moved away towards the end of the pattern that moved vertically up the building, it was stretched out with more running bond. So that's a lot of back and forth with different bond patterns.

 

Ultimately, by having that Flemish bond brick, we then protruded it out from the facade in the center of the pattern where the Flemish bond patterns are stacked very closely together. The bricks protruded the largest amount. And then as that pattern was separated and pulled apart from top to bottom, the brick became closer and closer to the facade.

 

So we basically created a formula that the mason can follow. For every increment, the brick would step out a half inch further, and this is what gave the facade that undulation, as you move up the bricks, steps out and back in by using this bonding pattern. It also created a really dynamic shadow which was something that we really loved.

 

When the sun hits the building the right way, you get a really fantastic shadow where you have that brick and it just really, in my opinion, created a beautiful cadence that worked through that pattern.

 

00;17;33;21 - 00;17;41;27

DP

So it really does remind one of Braille. So how far what's the furthest protrusion for one brick?

 

00;17;42;00 - 00;18;01;07

TL

I do like that description of Braille. You instantly have an image in your mind of these protruding points that they create the pattern. The furthest protrusion is about two and a half inches at the center of the pattern. And then as it works its way down in half inch increments, it goes back down to zero and the pattern becomes flush.

 

00;18;01;10 - 00;18;20;02

DP

So you guys said that you worked on this in 2D and in 3D. I would imagine if you did some sun studies, you got a better sense for how much shade and shadow was going to be produced by these protruding bricks? Did you do the project in BIM? Is it Revit? Because I saw 2D drawings of this?

 

00;18;20;04 - 00;18;42;25

TL

Yes. It isn't Revit. It is a BIM project. While we were in the design phase, we actually used a few different softwares SketchUp and Enscape and Revit along with AutoCAD, and we really did a series of 2D sketches, 2D drawings and 3D studies, partial facade studies. Just to get a sense of how this all might look.

 

00;18;42;28 - 00;18;49;26

DP

And how many iterations ultimately did you go through? I mean, big iterations, like is it two or three or ten or?

 

00;18;49;28 - 00;19;42;12

TL

Once we just came to the conclusion that we need to stick with a singular color brick here in the front, I'd say we probably had about ten different versions. It's a slim, tall building with very large windows, really trying to maintain a nice modulation of those windows in that spacing, but also then maintain a standardized brick dimension. So for a long time we were playing around with the inches of the bricks so that we were at a half size brick or full size brick.

 

Should we use a stack bond and emphasize the verticality of the building? How often should we introduce a horizontal element so that it's not looking like a stack of pancakes, for lack of a better expression? So really, we had a good amount of iterations here until we got to the point where we really like the running bond, Flemish bonds.

 

00;19;42;14 - 00;19;58;19

DP

I like the way you describe that. From what I remember looking at these photos, the windows are framed out differently. So you have a series of windows which have an individual frame, and then at one point in the building, that frame actually wraps a few stories of windows, right? So you break up the facade that way, too.

 

00;19;58;19 - 00;20;26;03

TL

Exactly. Playing with the verticality of the building, we did group a series of windows, two windows stacked vertically, three windows stacked vertically and created a frame around those windows. And this helped take that 12 story building and just give it a little bit of scale as it moved up the building. So these groups have two vertical windows that are now framed together.

 

Then also had the movement of the undulating brick happening between them.

 

00;20;26;05 - 00;20;28;28

DP

You guys really thought through it. It's a real beautiful facade.

 

00;20;29;04 - 00;20;29;29

TL

Thank you.

 

00;20;30;01 - 00;20;34;06

DP

So how big was the team that worked on the project? Just a few people?

 

00;20;34;08 - 00;21;17;08

TL

Every project is staffed with a dedicated associate director who are all registered architects, a project manager, and then the support staff. When we were in the design phase, we had the project manager working together with one of our designers. So we really had a team of to playing around with this and then bouncing the idea back off of the associate on the project.

 

Then once we really ramped it up into production, we would stack two or three people on the project. As you get closer to submission deadlines and trying to get into the Department of Buildings to get permits done, we would build the team up. Usually there was always at least two people on the project that were always there from day one.

 

They haven't left the project and they stayed on from beginning to end.

 

00;21;17;10 - 00;21;26;09

DP

So how long did it take to build the building? I would imagine it was pretty cool watching that facade go up. First couple stories. You must have been thinking, Wow, man, this is going to be something.

 

00;21;26;12 - 00;21;51;29

TL

You know, the construction team, they did a fantastic job. They had a really good crew out there. And around 24 months, the building went up and then all the fine details coming out of the pandemic. It was interesting. There were certain trades that just took longer because of materiality, distribution chain, supply chain, availability of product, which threw little curveballs here and there.

 

But all in all, the sequence and timing was fairly smooth.

 

00;21;52;01 - 00;22;01;13

DP

So it seems like I learned something new every project. Was there anything that you guys learned while you were out in the field or doing these drawings or dealing with the client?

 

00;22;01;16 - 00;22;48;06

TL

There certainly was. You know, I had spoken about the Mason earlier on, and that was certainly a good lesson. Building a good relationship with your Mason early in the project is really important and I joke about it. Sometimes they look at the architect's details and think, Are these guys crazy? We're not going to build this. There's going to be a better way to do it.

 

And I think that was really the big lesson we took here, establishing that good relationship and also giving the tradesmen the respect that they deserve. They're installing the work. They know some of the nuances of how this gets installed and taking that into consideration, finding that common ground so that you don't bring your ego into the conversation and giving them that professional respect and you're going to get it back.

 

That was definitely a good lesson here.

 

00;22;48;08 - 00;23;16;16

DP

That seems like a lesson I've learned over and over again throughout my career. When you're young, you go out there and you think you know everything and you've got an answer for everything, or you're going to fake your way through it, or however you choose to deal with it. But as you get older, you realize that these people that you're working with, many of them have an awful lot of experience, and it would be a good idea to sit and listen to them and actually ask them questions rather than tell them what to do.

 

00;23;16;18 - 00;23;38;10

TL

That's right. And I always find that working with our up and coming project managers and our younger staff, it's always those lessons that you try to instill in them. It helps them understand how to build those relationships because this industry is built on relationships and if we can do that, we're going to navigate successfully through any project.

 

00;23;38;13 - 00;23;58;03

DP

Well, you guys have been around a long time, 50 years. Goodness gracious. That's incredible. Congratulations, Tom. You've been an architect for over two decades. Based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for your younger self or maybe some young architects working their way up the ranks?

 

00;23;58;05 - 00;24;13;16

TL

Yes, don't worry. It's going to work out, if you love it, stick with it. It's a long road. And just when you think maybe you should change your major, you might still be out of college 20 years and asking yourself, Should I change my major? If you love it, stick with it. It's rewarding.

 

00;24;13;19 - 00;24;28;05

DP

That's really funny. I feel like I've changed my major all the time.

 

My goodness. So, Tom, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about Wolfgang Architects and yourself?

 

00;24;28;07 - 00;24;38;19

TL

They can go right to our web site at Aufgang.com and they can find all the information about us there. They can follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter and all the different platforms.

 

00;24;38;21 - 00;24;45;21

DP

Well, thank you very much, Tom. It's been great. And I encourage people to go to the site and take a look at this very interesting building. Thank you.

 

00;24;45;29 - 00;24;50;18

TL

Doug. I really appreciate it. It was great chatting with you here today. I had a great time.

 

00;24;50;21 - 00;25;18;12

DP

Awesome. Thank you.

TRANSCRIPT

 

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;13

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;15 - 00;00;28;26

Christa Waring (CW)

It's only exterior work. Right now, we've just mobilized to start the brick restoration. We had great assistants getting a perfect match to the original white glazed brick that they have there. You want to make sure when you're doing this much brickwork that your spackle is right, and it doesn't stand out in the end. And Landmarks approves the work very easily.

 

00;00;29;03 - 00;03;30;29

DP

This is my guest, Christa Waring. I'll share more about her shortly in this episode from The Design Vault. We highlight Christa's project in New York City, 650 Park Avenue. 650 Park Avenue is located in the Upper East Side Historic District, built in 1963 and designed by Emery Roth and Sons Architects. It's a 21-story apartment building with a white glazed brick facade and setbacks above the 16th floor.

The base of the building maintains the building line of Park Avenue. Recent façade examinations revealed a deficiency in the wall tie system that connects the face masonry to the backup concrete block masonry. CTA designed a program of facade repairs that include face masonry pinning in addition to the restoration of all shelf angles across the façades. The original construction features have finished glazed edge over all the window lintels, which has an impressive impact on the esthetic of the building. Thus, the project entails an extensive masonry rebuild where matching the existing brick is of paramount importance.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat, and this is Design Vault.

Christa Waring is a principal at CTA Architects, P.C. in New York City. She's been with the firm since 1994. She received her Bachelor of Architecture from Pratt Institute. She's passionate about sustainable design and has a keen understanding of building code and zoning issues.

Christa drives her office's environmental research and implementation of green technologies, which includes adherence to lead and certified passive House design standards. She's worked on some of CTA's largest projects, including the 90,000 square foot mixed use Lower East Side Girls Club, Arabella 101, and the Grand Street Guild. Her recent projects include the award-winning exterior Preservation of the Cast Iron Facade at 54 Bond Street.

She also recently oversaw the completion of the conversion of an illegal SRO into low-income housing on the Upper West Side. One of her current projects includes a building rehabilitation project that's part of the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority's Retrofit New York pilot program. Christa taught at Pratt Institute and lectured for the New York City Urban Green Council and the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association.

She's also a member of the New York City Department of Buildings Construction Requirement and Materials Committee, and the New York City Energy Conservation Code, Commercial Advisory Committee. So welcome, Christin. It's nice to have you with us today. So, tell us a little bit about CTA architects, P.C. in New York City. So where are you guys located in New York. What's the size of the firm? How long have you been around and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;31;02 - 00;04;46;14

CW

Well, thank you for having me today. CTA Architects. We're located down in the Flatiron District, just a couple of blocks from the Flatiron. We have 60 plus employees at this point, including support staff. We do a variety of work in New York City. All of our work is focused in the five boroughs, frankly, mostly Manhattan. We do have Brooklyn and Queens, some in Staten Island, a couple in the Bronx.

But we originally started out in 1987 or so. We came into being around the time that the first facade laws came into effect. And so, it was something that we naturally fell into. And we have been doing that work ever since I've been there since 1994. Our founding partner, Doug Cutsogeorge was my professor at Pratt and hired me as an intern in my second year there, and I have been there ever since.

So, I was an intern. I typed envelopes that when we had typewriters, I fax things and then went out and did field measurements and climbed around on ladders and hung on scaffolds. And 29 years later, still there. And I've been a partner since 2014.

 

00;04;46;17 - 00;04;49;16

DP

Real quickly, tell me about these façade laws. What is that?

 

00;04;49;23 - 00;05;55;20

CW

You know, my business partner Dan, could give you, like, every single date and iteration, but I'll give you the gist, which is that terracotta fell off a building at Columbia University and that initiated a city response, which was at that time called Local Law ten, which mandated that all buildings over six stories have to be inspected every five years by a registered professional and a report submitted to the Department of Buildings.

So, at that point, all of the buildings submitted on the same day, February 21st, every five years, and as the law developed, it keeps developing based on things that have happened in the city. At that point, it was just the street elevation and you just had to look at it with binoculars. Now it's the entire building and you have to look at it from a hanging scaffold or a bucket truck. And depending on the construction type, you have to open probes through the face masonry to expose what's in the cavity.

 

00;05;55;25 - 00;05;59;20

DP

Wow. So, the incident at Columbia was that in the early eighties?

 

00;05;59;21 - 00;06;09;27

CW

That was in the early to mid-eighties. So first it was Local ten and then it was local Law 11. And now it's called the Façade Inspection Safety Program.

 

00;06;10;05 - 00;06;14;05

DP

So, it sounds like a good thing. They're now inspecting buildings for this very issue.

 

00;06;14;12 - 00;06;25;23

CW

Right. And now they broke up the buildings. There are three sub cycles, so not every report for every building in the city is due on the same day. So now it's broken up. So that makes it a little easier.

 

00;06;25;26 - 00;06;32;12

DP

So, tell us a little bit about yourself. So how long have you been a practicing architect and what's your role in the office as principal?

 

00;06;32;19 - 00;06;53;26

CW

I got my license in 2003, But, you know, obviously I was working for the nine years before that. Currently, as principal, I do a lot of things. I wear a lot of hats. I yell at contractors, I hold clients’ hands and bring in work and put out fires where I need to.

 

00;06;53;28 - 00;06;55;02

DP

Do you like your job?

 

00;06;55;04 - 00;07;08;05

CW

I do. It is challenging. It's a lot. You have to really want to buy into it and invest. My partners, I've been with them almost 30 years. They're family and it's a good place to be. They're good partners.

 

00;07;08;12 - 00;07;11;15

DP

That sounds like a really interesting niche market.

 

00;07;11;17 - 00;07;33;01

CW

It is. And it's funny because, you know, there are a few firms in the city that do this, and we all know each other, and then we all get offshoots from employees have left and hung their own shingle and proceeded to sell focus and exterior restoration work. I would say it's about 70% of our work is exterior restoration.

 

00;07;33;06 - 00;07;38;04

DP

Gotcha. Let's talk about 650 Park Avenue. So how did you guys get the project?

 

00;07;38;06 -00;08;21;11

CW

So, I think, like everything in my history at CTA, it was word of mouth. It's kind of a tangled web. So, we use a consulting engineer who was working on a project out and Garden City, Long Island, and they needed an architect. So, he referred me to the owner, and the owner liked us and then brought us on to some of the more buildings that he owns in Brooklyn.

And then they were going around and around with their facade issues at the building that he lives in. And so, then he brought me in over there. So, it was all this chain. I always say, you never know who you're talking to when you're going to run into them again, who they are, who they end up being. To you and professionally. So that's how we got brought into the building.

 

00;08;21;18 - 00;08;29;07

DP

That's really interesting. So, could you give us a little history of the location? So, what was there prior to 1963, if you know?

 

00;08;29;13 - 00;08;43;23

CW

I do not know what was there prior to 1963, but it is a typical white glazed brick building of that era with the wedding cake setbacks. Also, during that construction period, the kind of problems that you find typically in that construction.

 

00;08;43;26 - 00;08;50;06

DP

So, the scope of the project then was only exterior work. Do you guys too any renovation work on the interior?

 

00;08;50;13 - 00;09;05;21

CW

It's only exterior work right now. We've just mobilized to start the brick restoration and we are going to visit with landmarks, redoing the ground floor, the base of the building as well.

 

00;09;05;23 - 00;09;07;20

DP

So, the project is currently underway.

 

00;09;07;26 - 00;09;08;24

CW

It's just started.

 

00;09;08;24 - 00;09;09;06

DP

Just getting rolling.

 

00;09;09;06 - 00;09;11;04

CW

Just getting rolling. It's exciting.

 

00;09;11;11 - 00;09;18;05

DP

So stylistically, the setbacks on those building that's due to the new laws in New York City at the time.

 

00;09;18;09 - 00;09;21;25

CW

Yes, those were due to zoning.

 

00;09;21;28 - 00;09;35;22

DP

Project restrictions - so when you guys are working on an exterior facade, what are the rules of the road? How do you guys end up doing a project like that? I would imagine that the exterior is all scaffolding at some point. What does the city make the contractor do?

 

00;09;35;24 - 00;11;06;28

CW

Okay, so first we started this project with, I would say, upwards of a hundred probes through the face masonry to really define what the issues were, because there was some debate over the extent of the repairs that were necessary. So, I spent a lot of time on the scaffold in the summer of 2022 looking at all the probes and really identifying the same repetitive problem over and over again.

We're just getting mobilized with hanging the rigs and part of all that entails is we had to file drawings at the Department of Buildings to get our permits and landmarks. Landmarks has to approve first, and we had great assistance getting a perfect match to the original white glazed brick that they have there. You would be surprised at how many iterations of white glazed brick there can be, but you want to make sure when you're doing this much brickwork that your speckle is right and it doesn't stand out in the end.

And Landmarks approves the work very easily. We didn't have any issues. I submitted to them the chip that we had custom made for the building. So that was great. To mobilize, the contractor has to pull scaffold permits, so he has to file with the city to install hanging scaffolds. There was already a sidewalk shed in front of the building to protect the pedestrians on the street. It's a corner building, so a lot of sidewalk shed that's been there for a while.

 

00;11;07;06 - 00;11;11;19

DP

So, let's back up. How did they know they had a problem? There were bricks falling off the building.

 

00;11;11;26 - 00;11;24;06

CW

It originally came up in a small exterior restoration project before our time that someone identified that they had a problem, and then it just kept developing from there.

 

00;11;24;10 - 00;11;29;05

DP

And how many sides were that exposed? Two or three. I understand it's a corner. Does it have a back side?

 

00;11;29;10 - 00;11;35;18

CW

Actually, it's L-shaped in the back. It has a number of large façades. It has the two large corner facades.

 

00;11;35;20 - 00;11;39;26

DP

So, the building's L-shaped and plan to then open up to a courtyard and-

 

00;11;39;26 - 00;11;40;05

CW

It does.

 

00;11;40;06 - 00;11;44;26

DP

Okay. How long does the project then take? Start to finish on a building this size?

 

00;11;44;28 - 00;12;12;26

CW

So, we're looking at completion in February of 2025. So, it's going to be about a year and a half on the ground. We have to install all of the pins. We have to pin the face masonry back to the backup block, which is a retrofit wall tie and first they pin and then we're going to strip all the shelf angles above and below the shelf angle and address the flashing and repaint the shelf angles.

 

00;12;12;26 - 00;12;22;12

CW

And sometimes we'll have to replace some of the angles and rebuild the masonry. And we have some parapet work to do, parapets that are not in good shape.

 

00;12;22;14 - 00;12;35;16

DP

So just so I understand that. So, they put up the scaffolding. Then you end up spending a bunch of time out there. I would imagine your partners are also out there. What I'm getting at is who identifies the structural issue? Who's the expert? Is it the architect?

 

00;12;35;24 - 00;12;36;27

CW

Oh yes, I did that. Yep.

 

00;12;37;03 - 00;12;45;06

DP

Interesting. You then document those issues in drawing form, like two dimensional drawings or 3D drawings and present them to somebody.

 

00;12;45;11 - 00;13;13;02

CW

Yes. Two dimensional drawings and photographs. I think the photos really speak a thousand words on this one. I presented it to the board. It's a condominium, so they have a board of directors and we met with them. I went over what I saw and the resident manager there was also very helpful, and he understands the situation and saw some of the probes that were open, that were closer to the ground and could confirm what we were telling them.

 

00;13;13;05 - 00;13;25;13

DP

So, you put together a set of drawings and is that priced like a typical architectural set of drawings by a GC? Is it then bid out and the lowest bidder is chosen? What's that process look like?

 

00;13;25;19 - 00;14;52;03

CW

So, we put together a set of drawings and construction details because we had opened so many probes, there were no questions. A lot of times when you work on a building and there are no existing drawings, which is probably 90% of the time for us, you're making assumptions about how things were built in the period of the building, right?

So inevitably you open it up and there's a surprise, sometimes a minor surprise, sometimes not so minor surprise. But this one, because we had had so many probes opened, we were able to really pin down what was behind the wall. So, we put together elevations, construction details and written specifications. We put them out to bid like the architects having a niche market in exterior restoration in New York City, there are also contractors who are a niche market for exterior restoration in New York City.

So, we bid to five or six or seven of those guys, the majority of whom I've known for many, many years. You know, we all work on the same stuff, and they select the bidder. Because it's private, it doesn't have to go to the lowest bidder. You know, we usually have an interview process so that the board can meet the contractor and get their feel for if they're a good match, that they're going to be a good match with building staff. So we go through the bidding process and then the contract is awarded and they do all that legal stuff on the side that I don't have to worry about.

00;14;52;08 - 00;14;58;04

DP

So, you guys do two dimensional drawings, details, any 3-D stuff? Not really necessary.

 

00;14;58;04 - 00;15;00;03

CW

Not really necessary for this type.

 

00;15;00;03 - 00;15;03;21

DP

And how many people end up working on one of your projects like this one?

 

00;15;03;24 - 00;15;11;00

CW

So, on this project, it was myself, our project manager, Freddy, and his staff member Arefa.

 

00;15;11;06 - 00;15;24;25

DP

So, let's get into the details. How does this work? Like, how do you do what you're doing? Are you just replacing bricks in specific areas? Are you replacing entire facades? And what does that detail look like?

 

00;15;24;28 - 00;15;33;29

CW

So, in the scope that we settled on, we are replacing the bricks along every shelf, angled the building, and this building has shelf angles that every floor.

 

00;15;34;02 - 00;15;36;11

DP

Explained to us what that is, a shelf angle.

 

00;15;36;13 - 00;16;11;02

CW

This is a concrete framed building. So, it has a concrete structure, and a shelf angle is a continuous steel lintel basically that holds up the masonry at every floor and it's bolted back to the concrete slab at regular intervals. There are shims and bolts, and it holds the slab in there. It holds the brick at every floor, provides the gravity support, and the wall ties provide lateral support. So, the shelf angles that this building were in very good condition. There are a few issues here and there, but nothing terrible.

 

00;16;11;02 - 00;16;11;20

DP

They’re all steel?

 

00;16;11;25 - 00;16;18;08

CW

They are steel like three by three, 4x4 angles. Some of them were shallow. So, we're making them a little deeper.

 

00;16;18;14 - 00;16;20;04

DP

Were they galvanized or painted?

 

00;16;20;09 - 00;16;46;03

CW

The original ones were not. They were painted. But when we go back, we go back with galvanized and stainless-steel bolts, and then we replace the shims and the bolts, obviously. And where we find a length of deteriorated shelf angle, we will replace that. We have an allowance for that in the contract to deal with that because there were some areas higher up on the building where they get, you know, more weather exposure that we're in worse condition.

 

00;16;46;05 - 00;16;49;10

DP

Tell us a little bit about the brick. How did you get the matches?

 

00;16;49;17 - 00;18;25;21

CW

Fortunately, this building hasn't had any huge projects on it, so it was fairly easy to identify which white glazed brick was the original brick, which was good because there were maybe three different bricks on it, different color, white base. You know, one was a little pink, one was a little white, or some had a brown speckle, some had a fine speckle, some had a varied speckle.

So, because there are so many setbacks, we were able to go to somebody's terrace where there hadn't been any work high up on the building because at the base at stone. So, I'm not comparing it at the base of the building. We also walked along the sidewalk shed because that gets you up higher. And we selected - we were like, okay, this is the original brick.

And then I reached out to King's. They are brick distributors in New York City, and the folks there were super helpful and made me all sorts of custom samples and they have little brick chips and brought the brick chips up to site and went through everything with the resident manager and decided on our brick. And then you mentioned in your intro the finished underside of the brick at all of the window lintels.

So, when you have a shelf angle you don't see in the field of the masonry, you don't see the underside, the clay body of the brick. But over the lentils you can see like the little yellow clay body of the brick. And I really got into the fact that it was finished on the underside. I think it's just a little bit like a perfect little thing that I really liked. So, we asked for that as well.

 

00;18;25;23 - 00;18;29;11

DP

Is that like a space that's about a half hedge, three quarters of an inch wide?

 

00;18;29;14 - 00;18;43;10

CW

Yeah, it's about a half an inch. If you have the right amount of bearing. And so, they put the glaze on the underside. So, the Masons have to be aware, obviously, when they're rebuilding to look for that. I'm sure I'll catch some in the beginning before they get used to it.

 

00;18;43;18 - 00;18;45;13

DP

Is it going to be hard to find a good mason?

 

00;18;45;19 - 00;18;51;10

CW

We have the contractor on board, and he has good masons on hand, so I'm not very worried about that.

 

00;18;51;16 - 00;19;01;08

DP

So, did you guys learn anything interesting through the construction process, through the inquiry process, anything unusual, Anything you'd never seen before?

 

00;19;01;14 - 00;20;11;10

CW

Not anything I've never seen before, thank goodness. Because those are never good surprises. I was happy, given the lack of wall ties, that I was happy to find that the backup masonry was still in good condition. We didn't have to worry about the backup masonry because that can also be an issue. We decided to pin the columns, which I was surprised actually worked because I had never pinned columns before because you're pinning into the concrete.

So, when you do the retrofit wall tie, you can call the manufacturers rep and he'll come out and do a test. He'll drill in the wall tie, and then he has like a crank to see what the force is, to see if the tie actually holds. And I had originally planned to strip all of the column locations in the building and rebuild that as well.

But on another project of mine, we had had pull tests done for retrofit pins on that building and they went into the columns, and I was like, wait, what? I didn't think that could happen. So, we called them out. We had had him do the tests in the field, in the masonry before, but we had him come back and do the pull tests and the columns and the pins drilled right in. So, it was great news.

 

00;20;11;17 - 00;20;15;13

DP

So, these are columns on the exterior facade behind the brick masonry.

 

00;20;15;16 - 00;20;31;04

CW

Right there, directly behind one wythe of brick behind the masonry. So, the backup concrete block goes right to the column. And then if you were to take all the face masonry off the building, you would see a grid of the columns with the backup block in between.

 

00;20;31;06 - 00;20;38;00

DP

And all the residents there. Do they get to live through the construction process?

 

00;20;38;02 - 00;21;04;06

CW

They do...Yeah. It's never pretty. It's just not. I feel bad, but there is going to be a lot of saw cutting, which is dusty. There is going to be a lot of drilling, which is loud. So, I hope that people at 650 Park, if you're listening, maybe you go back to working in the office for a while. What we do is loud and not anything that anyone wants to have to hear all day long if they're home.

 

00;21;04;08 - 00;21;08;02

DP

Back to the building for a second. I'm really surprised there were no drawings.

 

00;21;08;03 - 00;21;13;06

CW

We did have some the building super. The resident manager had some drawings.

 

00;21;13;08 - 00;21;21;10

DP

Yeah. What's always amazing. I mean, to go back further than that, people-built buildings from so little information, right? I mean, it's crazy.

 

00;21;21;14 - 00;22;05;26

CW

Yeah. So, we didn't really find any wall details. We had elevation drawings and then there's always elevation drawings, probably some plans and lots of plumbing drawings and mechanical drawings, which I don't need and are never accurate because they never built it that way anyway. And it was sixty years ago. So, lots of things have changed. So, we did go through the resident manager's giant bin of drawings in the beginning and got what we could use and it was helpful.

I mean, it helped us locate all of the columns along the facade, right? We wouldn't have had that if we didn't have the original drawings. It would have been more of a guess. But like in this project I said was knock wood a lot of guesswork so far.

 

00;22;05;29 - 00;22;16;02

DP

Yeah. And you talked a little bit about existing conditions and drawings. Is that something that you still do, do some existing condition sketches when you're out there and then somebody'll draw it up for you or.

 

00;22;16;09 - 00;22;56;00

CW

Oh absolutely. That's part of the process. You know, I went to site one day with my notebook and my pen and the contractor said, well, the girl who came last time had an iPad. And I said, I don't have an iPad. I have a notebook and a pen. They tried to give me an iPad, but I'm just more comfortable sketching it.

I feel like there is a connection between pencil and paper that makes you understand what you're looking at and what you're drawing. I don't know. When you go to architecture school, you don't really know anything when you start. And I started to understand through drawing, and I went to school in the era where there was no computer drafting.

 

00;22;56;00 - 00;22;56;16

DP

Yeah, I experienced the same thing.

 

00;22;56;21 - 00;23;13;25

CW

Yeah, I feel like there's a real connection and I think, you know, a lot of times there's an assumption that the computer program is the be all, end all. Not that just a tool and people don't really sometimes don't understand what it is that they're drawing because the computer's creating the detail.

 

00;23;13;28 - 00;23;15;14

DP

They miss it in the learning process.

 

00;23;15;19 - 00;23;35;24

CW

Yeah. And because we do what we do, that's not something that they teach. They don't teach that at school. I actually didn't have to take construction documents in school because I got credit for my job because I was doing actual construction documents. I worked full time. I went to school part time. So, it took me a very, very long time to graduate.

 

00;23;35;26 - 00;23;37;09

DP

Wow, that's impressive.

 

00;23;37;11 - 00;23;37;22

CW

Yeah.

 

00;23;37;29 - 00;23;42;20

DP

Christa, was sustainability an issue for you guys when you took on the project?

 

00;23;42;27 - 00;24;46;20

CW

Unfortunately, with this project, given the parameters of the scope, we could not really accomplish the integration of additional insulation in the cavity or something to that effect, moving forward, but in our office, we really focus on the concept of maintaining existing buildings and doing rehabilitations as sustainable practice. We have a sustainability coordinator that we brought on about two years ago.

She's fantastic. She keeps us honest. She's always regulating things, making sure we're composting, taking things out of the garbage can and putting them in the compost. We did a full led switch over on our lighting in the office pushed by her. She's changed our specs, you know, she'll give me and my partner Dan markups on the specifications with suggestions and we integrate that into our specifications. We do have a sustainable component in every job and some jobs, we can take it to a whole other level.

 

00;24;46;27 - 00;25;03;03

DP

Yeah, it would seem to me that have to go to the interior, right, and rip out all of the plasterwork and drywall and then reinsulate. So, I'm curious, a building like that, it gets a new facade, but it's not going to really change the R-value of the walls and it's still probably going to be a cold building.

 

00;25;03;06 - 00;25;28;21

CW

Right, there is that. And then a lot of times people say, well, I can put in these super-duper windows. And I'm like, Yeah, but your walls are not insulated at all. And you have a PTAC unit, which is basically a hole in the wall. So, you have to look at the balance of how to accomplish what it is you need to accomplish. But we look at the materials and the VOCs, and the location where things are made as well plays into sustainability.

 

00;25;28;21 - 00;25;29;29

DP

Yeah, it is what it is.

 

00;25;30;00 -00;26;06;06

CW

Yeah. I was on the Energy Code review Committee, as you mentioned, the advisory committee, but one of the reasons I signed up for that is because it does not answer existing buildings to the extent that I think it should, given that it's the New York City Energy Code and there's still some gaps in there. But, you know, we're conserving these buildings, we’re restoring them, we're not tearing down and building new ones.

And so that's good for the environment. But then how can we make a realistic energy code that you can apply to all of these existing conditions that we can't just change?

 

00;26;06;09 - 00;26;09;13

DP

I think it's wonderful. It's something most people don't think about.

 

00;26;09;20 - 00;26;38;04

CW

They don't know. And I lectured for Urban Green on the Energy Code. I gave a scintillating seven-hour long lecture. I ran out of words, though, during COVID, I couldn't do it on a screen. So, I tell my kids I ran out of words because there are a lot of words, but I think even sometimes the people that I was lecturing to depending on, you know, like you said, a normal architecture firm isn't thinking about this stuff because they're not dealing with existing building. They're dealing with a plot of land.

 

00;26;38;06 - 00;26;59;27

DP

So, Christa, you've been an architect for some time. Based on what you know today about being an architect, do you have any words of advice for either your younger self or young architects coming up? Because what you do is a little different - the 70% of the work that you guys do - is really very different from what many architects end up doing when they get out of school.

 

00;27;00;05 - 00;27;33;04

CW

One word of advice is not to be too married to the thought of what you think you want to do and to try different things, and you might really find something that surprises you, that you do. I've found along the way I've done some projects I would never imagine when I was in school that I would do something like that, and I really enjoyed it.

When you go to school, you have a vision, I'm going to do this. I want to do this. And if you just open yourself up to different projects and you might find something that really makes an impression on you.

 

00;27;33;11 - 00;27;35;23

DP

Yeah. What clearly worked for you?

 

00;27;35;25 - 00;28;13;05

CW

Yeah. And to my younger self, I don't know that I have advised my younger self because I don't know how much I've changed, but I always felt like if you're doing what you enjoy and you're with people that you enjoy doing it with, then little things that might be irksome to contemporary youth don't really register. They're not important in the long run, and you have to see the big picture.

I mean, did I think when I was hired, did I think when I was 23, someday I’ll own the company? No, I didn't think that, but it happened. So you never know. Hard work and a lot of luck is what gets you where you want to be.

 

00;28;13;10 - 00;28;19;29

DP

Christa, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about CTA architects and yourself?

 

00;28;20;02 - 00;28;44;21

CW

We have a website. It's www.ctaarchitects, all one-word dotcom where we showcase all of our finest work. Sometimes people look at our website and get a little, oh that's very fancy, but I always say it's your portfolio, it's your best, but there's everything in there. There's all this stuff that we do that doesn't make it to the portfolio level that's necessary.

 

00;28;44;24 - 00;28;46;15

DP

Well, thank you very much. Been great to have you.

 

00;28;46;19 - 00;28;51;09

CW

Thank you for having me. It was nice talking.