TRANSCRIPT

 

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;11

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;13 - 00;00;22;00

David Gross (DG)

Most of our buildings are taller and bigger. And this was a little bit of a throwback. A five-story building, not too many square feet, but it was a challenge for us and an opportunity to look at our housing work on a smaller scale and very proud of it.

 

00;00;22;02 - 00;02;59;25

DP

This is my guest, David Gross. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we’ll highlight David's project Park and Elton.

Park and Elton is a development with 38 residential units in the Bronx, consisting of two distinct five story buildings. These buildings correspond to the Melrose Commons Urban Renewal Plan. The plan provides a range of affordable housing choices for the Bronx.

The use of simple building materials, including brick in various patterns, colors and facade wall depths, makes these modest buildings appear quite unique. The simple modern masonry cornice and the differentiation of the window header detail with soldier course patterns reference the historical brick clad buildings found throughout the district. The subtle volume and height of Park and Elton also maintain a satisfying human scale.

Construction of the buildings included sustainable design elements and incorporated New York City Green building standards. Park and Elton are considered equivalent to LEED certified buildings.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault. Today we're talking to David E. Gross, AIA. David earned his Master of Architecture from the University of Pennsylvania and graduated cum laude with distinction.

David is the co-founder and executive partner of GF55 Architects, a national firm with offices in New York City and Miami. GF55, has expertise in multifamily, retail, educational, hospitality and industrial architecture. Since 1984, GF55 has designed and built over 12 million square feet of housing nationally. David's projects have received two Urban Land Institute Models of Excellence awards and was the recipient of the Andrew J. Thomas Pioneer and Housing Award in 2010 from the New York City AIA chapter.

David received an award of merit for the renovation and addition of a historic and significant mid-century modern house in Rye, New York. His work has also been featured in Architectural Digest and The New York Times. Today, we're going to talk to David about GF55’s Park and Elton Project.

Welcome, David. So, before we get started, tell us a little bit about GF55 Architects. I understand your firm is in both New York City and Miami. What's the size of the firm and do the offices take the same kind of work?

 

00;03;00;04 - 00;03;17;11

DG

We're very much a New York firm with a satellite office in Miami and the Miami offices in support of the New York workload. The needs of staffing vary, and sometimes we have the ability to staff the projects through the Miami workforce as opposed to the New York workforce.

 

00;03;17;13 - 00;03;24;03

DP

So, tell us a little bit about GF55 architects, who you're the co-founding partner. How did you guys get your start?

 

00;03;24;09 - 00;03;52;06

DG

My partner, Len, he's the “F” and I - Len Fusca - we met in grad school, and we were partners right away in both architectural terms and friendship terms. Down the road, 15 years later, we met Shy, also, who's our third partner and the three of us are close professionally and friendship wise. We're all friends. We have about 50 people right now and we have a varied practice. But really a specialty in housing.

 

00;03;52;08 - 00;03;54;18

DP

How long have you had the Miami location then?

 

00;03;54;25 - 00;03;57;23

DG

I would say since 2012.

 

00;03;57;27 - 00;03;58;27

DP

Has that been helpful?

 

00;03;59;01 - 00;03;59;27

DG

Very helpful.

 

00;04;00;03 - 00;04;04;25

DP

Do you have people that you work with locally and then you also work with them in Miami?

 

00;04;04;29 - 00;04;41;01

DG

Yes. The Miami office specializes in retail. We do a large amount of retail buildout work across the country, but our main office, I would say, is New York. In New York, we do a lot of projects that are versions of Park and Elton, but much larger. We also do charter schools and medical facilities, and we're working on a large storage facility near the JFK Airport, which came to us right before COVID and then the entire process of COVID with Amazon, it was all of a sudden that's a building type that was very much in demand.

 

00;04;41;06 - 00;04;46;21

DP

Ironically, it's a good segue way to what is your role in the office. Right. Everybody's doing something different. What are you doing now?

 

00;04;46;23 - 00;05;53;26

DG

I like being an architect. You know, sometimes I find that I maybe I'm focusing on the buildings too much. I would say that my role is focusing on the long-term growth of the company and the direction of the company.

We have an outside consultant on how to manage the office because at 50 people, all of a sudden, it's way too big for any of the three partners to direct themselves. And we value the expertise that we give, and we are mature enough now to value the expertise that outside consultants give us. So, we try to run the office very professionally. And I would say that a lot of our energy about running the office is motivating the workforce and we motivate the workforce through a carrot rather than a stick.

It's not the old school where you better be here or else. We have to market – intra-office marketing is almost as important as outside marketing. We have to make sure that everyone's gratified and satisfied because anybody under 40 demands that of us. It's challenging and it's interesting and it's – I like it. It's heartwarming.

 

00;05;54;02 - 00;06;01;06

DP

It's a neat paradigm, though. I mean, thinking deeply about your employees and their well-being and wanting to keep them, I think that's wonderful.

 

00;06;01;10 - 00;06;04;13

DG

We should sign you up for the volleyball team.

 

00;06;04;16 - 00;06;05;21

DP

I need about another foot!

 

00;06;05;24 - 00;06;10;00

DG

It's not just volleyball. It's après-volleyball that they like. You know, like apres-ski.

 

00;06;10;07 - 00;06;20;00

DP

That's great. All right, so let's dig in here and talk about Park and Elton. So, Park is at 3120 Park Avenue in the Bronx. Elton is East 159th Street in the Bronx, correct?

 

00;06;20;03 - 00;06;20;17

DG

Yes.

 

00;06;20;24 - 00;06;30;14

DP

So, you're a board member of the New York State Association for Affordable Housing, the Citizens Housing and Planning Council, as well as the New York Housing Conference, correct?

 

00;06;30;20 - 00;06;30;14

DG

Yes.

 

00;06;31;09 - 00;06;41;23

DP

You're intimately familiar with affordable housing. This project, did you know it was coming up? What was the process by which you interviewed or took the job or how did that work out for you?

 

00;06;41;26 - 00;07;31;26

DG

It was actually part two of a project. That part one was maybe ten years before that. And unfortunately, the original developer passed away. One of his employees took over the job and it's a unique project for us because most of our buildings are taller and bigger. And this was a little bit of a throwback, a five-story building, not too many square feet, but it was a challenge for us and an opportunity to look at our housing work on a smaller scale and very proud of it.

As you mentioned, I'm a member of housing organizations. I grew up, my father and grandfather were builder developers and while their work wasn't affordable with a capital A, it was affordable with a small A because they built stuff that was a modest price points. And I really have a lot of familiarity with that building type.

 

00;07;32;02 - 00;07;34;13

DP

Well, it sounds like something that can be pretty gratifying.

 

00;07;34;18 - 00;08;02;16

DG

Yeah, I would say that's my main professional focus. And Parker and Elton were challenging because even though they're small in scale, they're important. One of them is on the corner and it forms a strong impact on that street. And it's a part of the South Bronx, that is, the buildings are modest. These buildings are very much a breath of fresh air to the neighborhoods. They're small, but they punch above their weight class visually.

 

00;08;02;18 - 00;08;08;10

DP

So, did the architecture in the neighborhood affect the architecture that you ultimately made?

 

00;08;08;13 - 00;09;44;13

DG

I would say the architecture in the neighborhood affected it in scale, but not in aesthetics. I think that our point was to be not oppositional, but in contrast to the older buildings and, you know, one of our mottos is creative responses with humble materials. If you look at the classic modern architects, the housing was really an issue in the 1920s and it was never about luxury materials. Despite the Barcelona Pavilion and all the history of obviously building these amazing villas in a modernist style for very wealthy people. But the focus, on paper at least, was housing for people.

And what's so great about Park and Elton is because they're a small size, we really had to focus on the details. I would say that I had a great team in the office to work with. The original designer, Dimitri Papageorgiou and I worked on the basic idea. We had a third person on the team, Emily Koustae, who was sort of sitting next to Dimitri offering her opinion, said it so smartly that we listened. And then the woman who ran the job during construction, Ingrid Aguilar, she was also very important because during the construction we started to see some opportunities with the way the brick was laid that we tested it, she looked at it, she photographed it, she brought it back to the office, we changed it. There is a detail of white brick that goes up the building as if it's like bubbles floating into the air. They become fewer as they go vertical.

 

00;09;44;13 - 00;09;45;18

DP

It's denser below.

 

00;09;45;19 - 00;09;48;19

DG

Yeah, and that was all done during the construction.

 

00;09;48;24 - 00;09;52;17

DP

So, let's start with the client's programmatic requirements. What did they want?

 

00;09;48;24 - 00;10;52;28

DG

HPD is the housing preservation development arm of the New York City government. And they have strict guidelines about what size units and what mix you can build. And they have different programs that the developer wants to qualify for to get tax credits.

So, we had to satisfy the specific program for affordability that the city and the developer had worked out. So, we satisfy that the one bedrooms are 650 square feet, studios are 475, etc., etc. There's a million requirements on how big the windows can be and what kind of air conditioning and what the energy rating is. Even though they're affordable, they're built in a very, very quality manner.

So that was the first requirement. Then there's a zoning requirement for a maximum building height and a maximum lot coverage. And there's a lot of metrics and matrices that you have to satisfy in order to finally get to the way it looks.

 

00;10;53;05 - 00;10;56;02

DP

So, there weren't any breaks given to the fact that this is affordable house.

 

00;10;56;04 - 00;11;03;22

DG

No, no special breaks. It's built into the code that you get a certain benefit from building affordable units.

 

00;11;03;24 - 00;11;07;20

DP

So, tell us about the two sites. How were they the same? How were they different?

 

00;11;07;23 - 00;12;10;19

DG

The Park is on the corner, and it has a corner window that wraps the facade, and you see it from a distance. And then Elton is an infill building on a street that is at a diagonal to the building itself. And we knew that in order to come out of this alive, both mentally and architecturally and constructability wise, we had to make the buildings the same.

So, we made them the same. The choice to use brick was an easy one because brick is so flexible, because brick is a unit that's made so that you can change it as you lay the brick which is laid by a person. So, there's a way to get richness and detail in the facade through the brick. It's super durable and the way we did it where we have the window panels are shiny black brick as opposed to the, I think, two color blend on the rest of the building gives it the texture as if it were a different material.

 

00;12;10;22 - 00;12;25;10

DP

When I was reading about the project, you said that the building plans are super simple and yet, you know, you stand back, and you look at these things and there's – you got something going on. So, tell us a little bit about the building plans. How did you make them a little less like a box?

 

00;12;25;12 - 00;14;10;09

DG

There's a little tower on the end, and on each end to give the building a little more shape, you know, lack of a better term. But that's a right out of the zoning code that allows you to do that. New York is actually very conservative because quality housing, which is the current zoning for housing encourage you to make boxes so that when you go down the street, whether it's Park Avenue or 135th Street in the Bronx, all the buildings are the same height. They're looking to create that urban scale that's consistent. And along the avenues, it's taller and along the side streets it's lower. But it's consistent. And you can see from these photographs that our building is within a few feet of the adjacent buildings. So that's how we ended up with the massing.

In terms of the windows, it's very budget constrained. So, it's not just simple materials and creative ways. The whole process, you have to find the design and there's a discipline to using the materials to change the scale. For example, if we had just drawn the elevation with the windows, it would seem like a barracks. It would just be a box and it would seem very closed. But by doing visual tricks, like adding the side panels and a different color that matches the window frame, it expands the visual impact of the window opening and it makes the scale of the implied grid larger. So, it seems airier, but in fact it's not airier. It’s a visual trick. Architects are doing that all over the world to try to bring their buildings into scale.

 

00;14;10;13 - 00;14;17;05

DP

And you change the direction of the brick, right? The way the brick is laid, and the facade undulates somewhat, right?

 

00;14;17;09 - 00;15;22;22

DG

I mean, if you zoom in on the photographs that we're looking at, the horizontal bands, they're vertical and they're a stack bond. They line up as a grid. And the regular brick in between the horizontal bands is a running bond that stagger each joint the half a dimension of the brick. So, you get a different way the sunlight hits the brick. It adds visual nuance and detail, which I think there's a criticism of buildings when they're too stark, unless they're completely stark. And then the starkness is a design feature.

But I think you need to find the details to make the building visually interesting. I think you owe that, as the architect, to the world. It’s beauty, commodity and delight since Vitruvius said it, and he probably wishes he had copyrighted that phrase because that would be a great brand in 1642. But commodity is the function, and the structure is firmness, and delight is it has to look good. I mean, that's fundamental to being an architect. It has to look good.

 

00;15;22;29 - 00;15;27;10

DP

What about the color? How did you guys choose the brown? The variations of brown.

 

00;15;27;12 - 00;16;14;15

DG

The brick has sort of a brown, gray feel, and we wanted it to seem contemporary and not traditional in any way. I think that that brick that we used, because it's such a small quantity and it's a small relatively a small building, it's a more expensive brick than the cheapest. The developer, the builder, is often looking for the least expensive.

But in this case, the difference in the cost between a better brick and a simple brick was minimal. So, we went with a more fashionable, more stylish brick that you see in other buildings around town on a taller and more higher end buildings. In fact, we use this brick in other buildings, we like this building. There's sort of a little laboratory for us to explore other ideas.

 

00;16;14;18 - 00;16;18;15

DP

How was it working with the mason in the field? Did you guys do mockups?

 

00;16;18;17 - 00;16;46;21

DG

We did mockups. I think that Ingrid, she got the guys to do what she wanted. You know, so much of the world is about how do you get the other person to hear you and how do you get the other person to do what you want? And certainly, the architect has no literal power. They have the power of persuasion. And I think we worked closely with the developer and the contractors to persuade them to help us achieve our visual goals.

 

00;16;46;23 - 00;17;03;03

DP

Yeah, clearly. We're talking a little bit about design challenges here and we're talking about how you manipulated the bricks in various ways to create a facade that looks more appealing. Did brick solve any design challenges for you guys?

 

00;17;03;05 - 00;18;18;19

DG

I mean, brick has been a success since, you know, the Egyptians. Brick has been a success since the Neanderthals almost. But brick gives you a tremendously good thermal rating in New York. Any building that is built with public money or public support has to achieve a very high green rating. It's basically a LEED rating. 20 years ago, 15 years ago, everything was LEED. It had to be rated.

Well, the New York City green enterprise standards are fundamentally a LEED goal. So, we had to achieve that. We have to do an energy certification at the end and brick is just a tremendously flexible material for that. If you use a metal panel, which is much more expensive or a terracotta panel, it isn't necessarily any more energy efficient than brick.

So, brick helps with that because it's a small unit, it's flexible. So, if you run into a funky dimension in the space between your building and the property line in the adjacent building, it's easy to manipulate. And you can work with it on the site and the guy who's laying it can work with it for you.

 

00;18;08;22 - 00;18;24;20

DP

I don't know a whole lot about building in New York City. Talk a little bit about how long was the planning process for the building. How long did the review, the City Review take? How long was the design process? Construction process start to finish?

 

00;18;24;22 - 00;19;14;29

DG

That's a good question. It takes about 9 to 10 months to design a building from start to finish. In the middle of that process, you file the drawings about five months in with the city of New York. It takes four months plus to get the drawings approved. As they are reviewing the plans and asking for more information, you're working on the plans and filling in the information. So, the filing process and the production process, the design process are running in tandem. They're running concurrently.

Then there's another 2 to 3 months for the project to have the site prepared, demolition to take place, SOE which is a Support of Excavation process, you have to support the site as it's being excavated. And then I would say a building like this takes about 18 months to build.

 

00;19;15;06 - 00;19;16;10

DP

Park or Elton?

 

00;19;16;17 - 00;19;40;10

DG

They were both built simultaneously. They weren't built one and then the other built at the same time. So, when they did the foundation on one, they were doing the foundation on the other. The concrete sub was at both sides at the same time. The brick was done at the same time. These are simple load bearing buildings where it's a block backup to a brick facade and concrete floors and load bearing concrete walls.

 

00;19;40;15 - 00;19;41;14

DP

No steel?

 

00;19;41;15 - 00;19;44;14

DG

A miscellaneous steel over the windows. Miscellaneous steel at the corners.

 

00;19;44;20 - 00;19;45;24

DP

Just steel lintels and-

 

00;19;45;27 - 00;19;59;28

DG

Yeah, not too much steel. The spans are that long. And if you look at the building without the details, the masonry is about 35% of the width of the windows. So that's a very short span.

 

00;20;00;03 - 00;20;01;24

DP

What about ARB?

 

00;20;01;26 - 00;20;50;22

DG

There is no ARB in New York City. You can build a 100-storey building and – city planning, if you need any kind of variance, or you have a zoning issue, city planning acts as the architectural arbiter of the project. But if it's a simple project like this, an as-of-right project, you would be smart to show it to a community board because the community boards, you know, that's the smallest governmental association in the city and it's really the local people who are on a community board. Obviously, it's the people that really care. And you want the community board to be a part of your process. So, the developer will meet with the community board quietly, keep it friendly. And a project like this, I don't think there was any opposition whatsoever.

 

00;20;50;22 - 00;20;55;23

DP

And you do that - you wrap up schematic design, then you meet with people that are local.

 

00;20;56;00 - 00;21;20;03

DG

Exactly. To gain support because the last thing you want is opposition. I've worked in other cities and the great thing about New York is there are hurdles in front of you, many hurdles, but they're above ground. It's not like a game, you know, a video game where the hurdles come at you as you're running. You see them in front of you. The rules are transparent, and you can work the system.

 

00;21;20;06 - 00;21;26;14

DP

And when you guys present, do you present three dimensional images that you put together, Revit or-

 

00;21;26;14 - 00;21;47;22

DG

Revit. We do all of our work on three-dimensional building information modeling. Now, we don't use any CAD. Our staff is really talented and expert at BIM, and that means that when they're drawing, the very first line is a wall, not a line. And this three dimensionals are right there. And we have some very talented renderers.

 

00;21;47;25 - 00;21;53;12

DP

I’m sure. So, did you guys learn anything through the process of designing and getting these buildings built?

 

00;21;53;14 - 00;22;21;04

DG

The architecture is a very slow-paced world. If there's a crisis, you're not doing it right. There really shouldn't be any crises. Maybe when you're young and you forgot the most fundamental thing, there’s a crisis. But at this point, I would say that these buildings were inspirational for me because the four of us, the team, we were engaged all the way through, and we kept looking at it. It was a small project, and it was exciting in that way.

 

00;22;21;07 - 00;22;24;20

DP

I'll wrap it up with an easier question – maybe a harder question.

 

00;22;24;24 - 00;22;25;29

DG

Throw them at me. Come on.

 

00;22;26;05 - 00;22;29;05

DP

You clearly have a lot of experience being an architect-

 

00;22;29;29 - 00;22;32;13

DG

I didn't start out with gray hair. I've earned-

 

00;22;32;20 - 00;22;35;11

DP

I had hair.

 

00;22;32;20 - 00;22;37;12

DG

Exactly. Sure, you have hair.

 

00;22;37;15 - 00;22;45;25

DP

So, if you had to look back and give your younger self advice that you didn't know back then. What would it be, about being an architect.

 

00;22;45;27 - 00;23;24;22

DG

That's a great question. It reminds me of something I was thinking about on the way over here in preparation for today's chat. I think in any profession - medical, legal - your user group, your client is turned off to jargon. You can't speak with technical terms or only terms that another architect would recognize. So, I try very hard to be plainspoken and put things in terms of the benefit of the client and I think that that is something that I'm good at and people respond to that because the goal is to have a dialog with your client. And I think that's the best way.

 

00;23;24;29 - 00;23;44;05

DP

You know, interestingly, growing up, you must have seen how important that was with your father and his business. Having a good relationship, being a good communicator, being positive, never telling somebody no. Yeah, we can look at that. Let's give it a shot. So, it would seem to me that you learned an awful lot from your folks.

 

00;23;44;13 - 00;23;44;27

DG

I did.

 

00;23;45;04 - 00;23;49;24

DP

Well, David, it's been great to have you here. Thank you very much for your time. Where can people go to learn more about GF55?

 

00;23;49;26 - 00;24;00;02

DG

www.gf55.com or check out our Instagram page or our Twitter feed for all the stuff about us.

 

00;24;00;03 - 00;24;03;12

DP

All right, pretty straightforward. Well, thank you very much for your time. It's great to meet you.

 

00;24;03;19 - 00;24;05;11

DG

You too. I'm sure I'll see you soon.

 

00;24;05;12 - 00;24;09;01

DP

Right on.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;13

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;15 - 00;00;30;15

Peter Vanderpoel (PV)

Even though it wasn't important at the moment, but with COVID, the idea of having a prominent place or office in the house also came to the fore during the design process, three car garage, the expectation of a pool, some sort of flattened area for a deck around that pool, and then we've got the very steep hill in the back that turned into this terrace for someone could lay out there and get sun. It's fairly private there in the center of that spot.

 

00;00;30;17 - 00;02;15;21

DP

This is my guest, Peter Vanderpoel. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from The Design Vault, we’ll highlight Peter's project, Guilford Court. Guilford Court is a luxury home in a suburban area of McLean, Virginia. The lot is angular and located on a cul-de-sac with narrow street frontage. It's also quite steep, rising 20 feet as it extends back from the street.

Peter uses three separate virtual axes to inform the floor plan and programmatic organization of the house. The garage, located on the south side of the property, is clad in wood, while the private portion of the house, which resembles a kind of modern Tudor facade, is enclosed in fiber cement siding. The middle semipublic spaces are enclosed in a dark brick veneer.

The landscape also reflects the same three axis grid with sculpted geometry that level out the site.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

Today we're talking to Peter Vanderpoel, registered architect of Vanderpoel Architecture. Peter is a practicing architect, licensed in Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Virginia. His practice focuses on residential and small commercial projects in and around Washington, D.C. He received a Bachelor of Architecture from the University of Kansas and a Master of Architecture from Virginia Tech.

He's a certified Passive House consultant and has taught architecture at the university level for over ten years. He's currently an adjunct professor at Virginia Tech's Washington Alexandria Architecture Center, located in Alexandria, Virginia. So, let's get into the details. Welcome, Peter.

 

00;02;15;26 - 00;02;16;14

PV

Thank you.

 

00;02;16;16 - 00;02;27;21

DP

Thank you very much for being here. So first, tell us a little bit about Peter Vanderpoel architecture. Where you guys located? What type of projects do you take? And what have you been working on lately?

 

00;02;27;23 - 00;02;55;18

PV

The practice is located in Arlington, Virginia. If you're from the area, it's not far from the courthouse metro. Arlington used to be part of DC before receded back to Virginia a few hundred years ago. So we're right near downtown D.C. The practice is mostly residential and some small commercial projects. I'm trying to expand some of the commercial portfolio just to have a better balance in the marketplace. But I've been practicing - I've been on my own now for about 20 years now.

 

00;02;55;20 - 00;03;02;01

DP

Wow. So, tell me a little bit about the office. So how many people do you have working with you? Is that pretty consistent?

 

00;03;02;08 - 00;03;27;04

PV

So, the studio is in the backyard of my house, but it is off grid, so I have solar panels to run it and huge battery and a room in the back. It's not a passive house quality in terms of the exterior envelope, but it sort of leans those ways in response to the site. But it's very small. It's not much bigger than a garage. And I have two employees there, one full time, one part time. We can spend most of our day in there in a pretty comfortable fashion.

 

00;03;27;06 - 00;03;34;18

DP

That's pretty cool. Let's dig into that a little bit. So when did you decide to have an office or a building on your property that was off grid?

 

00;03;34;20 - 00;04;16;26

PV

Well, we used to have a garage. It was doing self-demolition over time. It used to be – it was not a Sears and Roebuck house, but it was a kit house from the 1980s. Yeah. And I forget the name of the company that made it. And it was one story. So, when my wife originally bought the house and then when our first child came, we decided to add the second floor.

And then I was working in the basement for a long time. But as the practice progressed, decided that I needed extra space. So, we finished off the demolition where the garage was essentially put it in the same location. But it's a story and a half. There's one floor and then there's a mezzanine above. Both my wife and I paint and so we have a couple easels up there on that second level. But the lower floor is all architecture.

 

00;04;17;03 - 00;04;19;19

DP

That's so cool. How long has your office been there then?

 

00;04;19;21 - 00;04;28;19

PV

Physically, for about five years. I started doing my own residential work in about 2001 when I was in graduate school, evenings and weekends.

 

00;04;28;22 - 00;04;31;16

DP

So, your first client, was that somebody you knew?

 

00;04;31;18 - 00;04;52;05

PV

No. It's a woman and I – she had a house not too far away, and she wanted to make it more energy efficient. So, we worked on that together. It went very well. And she decided that she wanted to do a more robust project. She bought the house across the street from her. Kind of a long, interesting story that goes with that. But then we built a new house for her and that was sort of my first big project.

 

00;04;52;12 - 00;04;57;02

DP

So, have you always been interested in energy efficiency in architecture and building?

 

00;04;57;08 - 00;05;29;16

PV

No, to be honest, it doesn't come up as often as you'd think and conversations with clients. But it's something that I'm trying to push now. As a passive house consultant, I can see the value of it, and it's not that difficult to get to. That's kind of fussy when it comes to construction, but in terms of the cost, it's making a much better envelope.

The tail on idea is that the mechanical systems, they don't need to be that special because you're not using them that much. The idea is not to be clever about producing energy, it’s to avoid using it in the first place. So, keep what you have.

 

00;05;29;18 - 00;05;34;26

DP

So, is it gotten less expensive over the last five or ten years to do energy efficient homes?

 

00;05;35;02 - 00;05;38;16

PV

I don't think so, because all of the construction costs have gone up after COVID.

 

00;05;38;22 - 00;05;39;10

DP

Oh wow, interesting.

 

00;05;39;10 - 00;05;54;11

PV

Everything associated with construction is – most of its up. Some things are starting to come down now. There are some materials that sort of lend towards that or lean towards the passive house and they're expensive like everything else. So, I don't think so.

 

00;05;54;18 - 00;06;02;28

DP

Interesting. Well, I’d love to talk more about that, but we're here to talk about Guilford Court. So, let's dig in here. How did you guys get the project? How did you get Guilford Court?

 

00;06;03;05 - 00;06;25;10

PV

I used to belong to a business networking group, and it was there that a friend of mine who was an insurance agent had met somebody who did construction. He wanted to do some projects and I went and had coffee with him one time, and then he had some backers who wanted to do a luxury home, and they found a lot in McLean. So he gave me the call and then we got started on the project from there. So, it was through business networking.

 

00;06;25;13 - 00;06;40;08

DP

Okay, so you didn't know the clients initially. Interesting. So, let's talk a little bit about the site. Tell me a little bit about the architecture around the site and I guess I should ask, was there a house on the site before you guys got there?

 

00;06;40;14 - 00;07;13;14

PV

Yes, there was. So, most of the houses there on that cul-de-sac were built, I would think in the seventies, the split-level brick. And over time – so when I first saw the site, all the houses on the cul-de-sac were like that. And during the design and construction process, I think at least two of them now have been torn down and rebuilt. There are a lot of tear downs in Washington D.C. because a lot of people come into the neighborhood – Amazon and whatnot – so it's not too hard to sell a house in that area at this moment. The houses that were on the lots were McMansion. I mean, I want to say-

 

00;07;13;17 - 00;07;17;05

DP

Sure. So stylistically, colonial stuff?

 

00;07;17;07 - 00;07;37;24

PV

Yes, colonial, stucco, no modern leanings at that time. That was sort of just before things were starting to get modern in the general building industry in D.C. So, it was typical suburban, large suburban houses. McLean's a wealthy community, so they're large and very nice but kind of standard stuff.

 

00;07;38;00 - 00;07;44;19

DP

Sure. So, it was kind of goofy when your client was like, hey, I want to do something modern. You're thinking, oh boy-

 

00;07;44;21 - 00;07;47;09

PV

Oh no. That's what I want to hear! I mean, the nice thing is I-

 

00;07;47;09 - 00;07;58;01

DP

No, I meant for all the neighbors – potentially for the neighbors. Sure. Right in the back of their mind. Did they ever talk about that? Hey, do you think, you know, we're going to put something modern here? We're excited about that. We don't really care.

 

00;07;58;05 - 00;08;09;10

PV

I think there's enough new things in that market, and new neighbors and so on that it's not as tight as it might be in terms of styles. And I think that's okay.

 

00;08;09;13 - 00;08;11;00

DP

How long has the house been finished now?

 

00;08;11;06 - 00;08;12;18

PV

It's been a couple – three years.

 

00;08;12;19 - 00;08;15;08

DP

Okay. So, you would have heard by now through the clients?

 

00;08;15;15 - 00;08;17;20

PV

Yes.

 

00;08;17;22 - 00;08;26;01

DP

So, let's see, programmatic requirements. So, you guys had your first meeting and they said, this is what we want. What was that?

 

00;08;26;03 - 00;09;25;17

PV

Well, the program was fairly standard, in that, the expectation to be a family, a number of bedrooms, a studio – if there was an artist, that would be sort of back on the site, but even though it wasn't important at the moment, but with COVID, the idea of having a prominent place or an office in the house also came to the fore during the design process – three car garage, the expectation of a pool, some sort of flattened area for a deck around that pool, and then we've got this very steep hill in the back that turned into this terrace for someone could lay out there and get sun. It's fairly private there in the center of that spot. So, in terms of the programmatic elements, they were more luxurious than some, but nothing out of the ordinary.

And then it was mostly dealing with the site that I think the interest started to come into the project because the first time I saw it, there was a house on there. We went out the back door and I went, ‘Oh my.’ In school you always go, ‘Oh, this will be challenging,’ but then in real life it's like, ‘oh, how are we going to do this?’

 

00;09;25;19 - 00;09;36;00

DP

So, did they talk about square footage in the beginning too? We want a house that's going to be 5,400 square feet, 3,000 square feet, 8,000. They have an idea because of square foot costs. Did they think about the house-

 

00;09;36;00 - 00;09;45;23

PV

No. As it was built – so, the contractor made some changes as the project was built. So, there was square footage added between permit and occupancy.

 

00;09;46;01 - 00;09;47;28

DP

You can do that? Don't you have to re permit?

 

00;09;48;03 - 00;09;56;08

PV

Different jurisdictions. Like they don't have an FAR in McLean. That's Fairfax County. Alexandria does and it's a-

 

00;09;56;09 - 00;09;59;09

DP

Yeah, I know. I deal with FAR like, it never ends.

 

00;09;59;09 - 00;09;59;19

PV

Yeah.

 

00;09;59;23 - 00;10;05;28

DP

And then you start thinking about renovating the basement and then FAR comes back in and you're working on the house and it's crazy.

 

00;10;06;01 - 00;10;08;29

PV

Yeah, it's just lot coverage there, and that's never a problem.

 

00;10;08;29 - 00;10;10;27

DP

Okay. What size is the house?

 

00;10;11;01 - 00;10;13;03

PV

I think it's 7,000.

 

00;10;13;03 - 00;10;29;18

DP

Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the building design. So, we already discussed the fact that you've got a site with some challenging topography. Talk a little bit about the unique geometry or the geometries that were generated based on what's physically out there.

 

00;10;29;18 - 00;12;18;03

PV

So, the lot as it looks in plan, in the site plan, it kind of looks like the state of Georgia and the Atlantic coast of Georgia, which just a little bit to the northeast of Florida is what's on the cul-de-sac. So, there's a very small entrance circle for the cul-de-sac, very small entrance onto the site, and then very steep as it goes up in the back.

And then these two angles that almost describe 60 degrees from the two property lines that go away from the cul-de-sac. And so, my first inclination was, well, that's almost 60 degrees. And so, a hexagonal plan would work on a plot like that. So, then I started looking at precedents for that. I know Frank Lloyd Wright had done the Hanna house in California that was based on the hexagon. He had done a whole series of projects based on geometry. So, I had looked at those, but it was through that less hexagonal forms and more towards three axes rather than we normally think of two axes that X and Y. But this now has these 120-degree rotation that with a hexagon you have three axes that are involved in describing that geometry and that was essentially the same geometry we had on that site. So that became the basis for the design.

And there were three geometries. We've got three programmatic elements of getting the cars on and off the semipublic and then the private. And then we also have this dramatic rise in height. So, we could also do the same thing vertically. We had the garage at the lowest level so the cars can get on easily. The semipublic now faces the street on this very narrow frontage and then the private is up highest and essentially resting on top of the semipublic block and runs back. But because the site is so steep, it touches ground. It's a grade at the back of the property, even though it's sitting on top of the lower level at the front.

 

00;12;18;06 - 00;12;35;05

DP

So, you did a lot of thinking about this project. The clients must really love that. I mean, you sit down with them, and you start talking about these three axes and three levels, three buildings, three heights, you know, the whole thing up there must have been like, “wow, man, this is really cool. This guy knows what he's doing.”

 

00;12;35;07 - 00;13;15;20

PV

You had mentioned that I teach, and one of the things that I find the easiest way to engage with clients is to talk about ideas rather than just areas and square footage costs, because everybody wants to be on board with that because thinking is the fun part of the design. The best compliment I get is somebody says, I never thought of that. I feel like, well, so I'm bringing value to this.

I have proposed several different designs. I think I had three different options. I had pinned them all up in the office and had wine and cheese for some people come in and just talk about it, and the design that is there right now was not my first choice. But then someone had said, “well, you know, this has all these things going on with these three axes.” And then it was like, ‘yeah, I think that is the best one.’

 

00;13;15;26 - 00;13;18;12

DP

When you're talking about people, is that the clients or other people?

 

00;13;18;12 - 00;13;20;18

PV

No, no. Other people in the office.

 

00;13;20;21 - 00;13;27;19

DP

Oh, that’s so great. So, you had a kind of design charrette in the office. Everybody's looking at it. You stand back and you kind of go through all the design options.

 

00;13;27;26 - 00;13;36;09

PV

And then the same thing will happen with the client. This was a speculative house, so it wasn't dealing with the final client, with the person who's going to move into the house.

 

00;13;36;11 - 00;13;42;15

DP

Oh, it was a spec house. Interesting.

So, local zoning codes and issues there.

 

00;13;42;18 - 00;14;08;29

PV

Fairfax County isn't that onerous. The usual, there's lot coverage. There's no aesthetic review. They do have those in Georgetown, in D.C., and in Old Town, in Alexandria, Virginia. But most of the other jurisdictions don't have an aesthetic review. And so, we didn't have to worry about that. The FAR, which happens in Alexandria, but not in Fairfax, we didn't have that. It's just lot coverage. It's rarely a problem.

 

00;14;09;02 - 00;14;10;25

DP

There wasn't anything too challenging.

 

00;14;10;28 - 00;14;11;17

PV

No.

 

00;14;11;19 - 00;14;12;15

DP

And building codes, IRC?

 

00;14;13;11 - 00;14;19;18

PV

Yeah, well, it's - Virginia has a uniform state building code, which is based on the IRC, and they have a couple of tweaks in there. But yeah.

 

00;14;19;24 - 00;14;26;27

DP

Right. Of course, they do. So, describe the building plan for us. What did you end up with?

 

00;14;27;00 - 00;16;50;09

PV

Well, one is getting the cars on and off the lot. They can't – just the nature of cars – they can't be going up and down hill. So, we need to get them on the shortest route and the lowest route so that if you think about the site as a state of Georgia, the Florida borderline was where the cars came in. The semipublic faced the cul-de-sac. It addressed through there and then we had stairs going up this series of stones, because one of the concerns was that's a long way up to get to that first floor just because it's so steep. So, we have these stones on the site that are shifted. So, you're sort of walking across these lily pads and then a diagonal that goes up and then a set of stairs. So, there's a variety of experiences moving towards the front of the house.

We also had the office portion and that was right inside the front door. So, if someone in the house decides to set up office there, they have a client come by. They don't have to go into the main house just in and out the front door, take care of business.

And then from there, a few more steps go into the main house. So that opens up in a very large open space. There's the fireplace, dining, living, kitchen are all in that area. And then behind the kitchen is sort of the pool deck area for showers and changing and so on. And then there's a large circular stair that's the pin.

So, if you think about the semipublic and the private, they splay out at 120 degrees and the stairway is the pin that holds us together to do that rotation. So, there's a very large grand sculptural stair up to the second level, and it comes up between the master bedroom and the additional bedrooms so that when you move towards the cul-de-sac, you're now in the master bedroom suite that is like this big diving board looking over. It's a tremendous site of this that was very challenging. But being in that master bedroom and looking out over the trees, away from the site, it's a dramatic view. Going the other direction, there are the other bedrooms, as I said, eventually gets back to grade because it gets so steep in the back. And then there's also the stair continues down.

So, there's a family room in the basement, a large television there as well. And then on the other end, we have that same rotation with the garage, and that's a much more modest stair coming from the garage into that living space. But it's based on those three axes and those two hinges to turn it on to the site, both in plan and in section.

 

00;16;50;15 - 00;17;00;28

DP

Yeah, that's really cool. So, tell us a little bit about the building materials. We’ve already discussed the house is modern and you use a series of different materials for the house.

 

00;17;01;01 - 00;17;31;29

PV

Right. There's fiber cement boards for the bedroom space and then the semipublic was a brick, and then the garage was - I think there's a wood on there. So, we have a couple of different faces. There's a brick facade for the semipublic. I think there's some brick as well on the garage. And we also brought some of the brick inside in the living spaces. We wanted to have a variety of materials to represent because everything's now being divided into threes with the garage, semipublic, private spaces.

 

00;17;32;01 - 00;17;38;19

DP

So, tell me a little bit about why you guys chose to use brick and in particular the dark brick.

 

00;17;38;22 - 00;17;55;25

PV

The dark brick. That was not my selection. I did not select the colors on that element, but it would also be contrasting. You could see the dramatic change in color because as I said, it's about these three elements and so they read differently everywhere you cut it.

 

00;17;56;00 - 00;18;02;21

DP

And it would seem to me that you chose to use brick as a differentiated design element, right?

 

00;18;02;23 - 00;18;13;08

PV

Right. It's also very common in this part of the country. In Old Town, Virginia, and just all up and down the East Coast, brick was the way to do durable construction and still is.

 

00;18;13;10 - 00;18;17;13

DP

Are there any houses around this one – are masonry as well?

 

00;18;17;17 - 00;18;36;11

PV

Yes. So, the houses that were there in the neighboring lots, most of them were split level with a lower with brick on the first floor and siding on the second floor. The houses that have come in their place, the two I can think of are stucco, but there's a lot of brick in the neighborhood.

 

00;18;36;14 - 00;18;53;12

DP

So, this is, as we discussed, it's contemporary. I wanted to talk a little bit about the unique construction details. I'm looking at these two facades that come together at the corner, and we've got two completely different building materials. That must have been a challenging detail. And you got a window, you got a corner window there. So how did you guys do that?

 

00;18;53;20 - 00;19;59;16

PV

There's steel in there to handle that opening on the corner. The reason why that angle is the way it is – something else that we hadn't discussed is that I used to play the drums, and still do. And for a long time, I used to play actually, in a bagpipe band. More sophisticated than you think – but, so, rhythms is something that I've been dealing with since I was ten years old.

And one thing that came up is what called polyrhythms, where you have overlaying rhythms. You take two rhythms that may not be so interesting on their own, but when they're overlaid with each other, then it creates something more interesting than either of them were to begin with. And that's how I view this project that this overlay, the reason why that window angle is there on the corner is because the geometry of the private portion has been thrust through the semipublic and so there's an angle that goes through. The chimney was rotated along that as well, and the contractor turned that back. But it was that slot that pushed through that mirrors the same access that the private portion is on.

 

00;19;59;19 - 00;20;05;03

DP

Is the chimney also masonry? And that's supported by steel. Doesn't run straight through the building.

 

00;20;05;06 - 00;20;07;19

PV

Right. There are portions of it that are supported with steel.

 

00;20;07;19 - 00;20;11;06

DP

Did you guys end up using any brick on the interior?

 

00;20;11;08 - 00;20;29;24

PV

Well, there is you can see it on the lower portion there. There's brick for the fireplace surround, which is in the lower left photograph there.

And there were also two trees on the site where we ended up pulling those up, but the contractor had those milled and use them for the trim. The wood that's above the fireplace there is from those trees.

 

00;20;30;00 - 00;20;31;13

DP

Do you remember the species?

 

00;20;31;15 - 00;20;34;16

PV

My recollection will be black locus, but I'm not sure.

 

00;20;34;18 - 00;20;47;06

DP

I was going to ask you what some of the historical precedents were for the for the architecture, but clearly were into much more modern architecture here. However, as you said, we see brick in the area.

 

00;20;47;08 - 00;20;52;08

PV

Yeah, there's brick. The material is common in Northern Virginia. The building forms.

 

00;20;52;15 - 00;20;54;02

DP

Yeah. I was going to say we've got gables here.

 

00;20;54;02 - 00;21;01;21

PV

Yeah, that's pretty common as well. So, the basis of it is traditional, but the implementation has become modern.

 

00;21;01;24 - 00;21;12;26

DP

And tell me a little bit, what I call this modern Tudor aesthetic. Where did that come from? And I know it's not modern Tudor but describe that for our listeners.

 

00;21;12;28 - 00;21;22;15

PV

So, from this view, the division of the fiber cement is accomplished with these vertical elements that come proud of the exterior finish.

 

00;21;22;18 - 00;21;28;16

DP

Okay, so they're not set back into the fiber cement. They're actually proud. So, it's applied.

 

00;21;28;18 - 00;21;44;00

PV

Yeah. And so that could be considered a reference. It was not the intention, but the half timbers that was common with timber houses would use expressed wood materials and then with stucco in between those and then the angles for the roofs are fairly standard.

 

00;21;44;05 - 00;21;44;24

DP

Are those 12:12’s?

 

00;21;45;07 - 00;21;51;25

PV

Tudor style, yes, they are. The contractor ended up putting living space up there as well. So, you made good use of that space.

 

00;21;51;25 - 00;21;59;28

DP

Oh, of course, that's great. And you had no issues with having a third or fourth story there, right? So, were there any height restrictions on the site?

 

00;22;00;04 - 00;22;06;12

PV

There are, but Fairfax County, you add up, it's an average the way it was in the back. We were okay on the front.

 

00;22;06;13 - 00;22;10;19

DP

Right. You said the third story, which was the basement was set down into the site.

 

00;22;10;22 - 00;22;18;04

PV

Yeah. You can see it on the left, the lower right image there you can see the window for the basement below that large corner window.

 

00;22;18;08 - 00;22;23;25

DP

So, did you learn anything new about brick dealing with these details, even with this cantilever?

 

00;22;23;27 - 00;22;37;29

PV

Well, no, it's just with steel implemented in there, it's fairly common. If you go through D.C., the urban renewal period of Georgetown in the seventies and eighties, there’s brick everywhere. And so, everybody knows how to work with brick in D.C.

 

00;22;38;03 - 00;22;55;19

DP

Well, it's clear it solved a design issue for you guys because you were looking for a series of materials that all went together, and I love the color. It goes so well with everything else. It really just works. I think it looks great. Now, who did the drawings for the job and did you do them in 2D and 3D, 3D, BIM?

 

00;22;56;11 - 00;23;14;28

PV

No. Well, we did a sketch up model. I was renting some space with the firm down, and Alexander at the time had a woman helping me out to do most of the construction documents in AutoCAD. And then we had the sketch up models for presentation just to talk about the design. There was originally, that's when I used to draw with my hands. I used to do it on sketch paper.

 

00;23;15;04 - 00;23;33;05

DP

You and me both. It's so great. I got so lucky, I worked in an office in Baltimore, and they got so slow that they trained me on CAD. This was 97, 98. Thank God. I would have been completely unemployable for the rest of my life had I not learned how to draw and, you know, how to use sketch up, which is great.

 

00;23;33;05 - 00;23;39;09

PV

Well, yes, I do. When I started though, we had a product called GDS, and it was McDonnell Douglas.

 

00;23;39;11 - 00;23;42;03

DP

Okay, So airplane software. You’ve gotta be kidding me. That’s great.

 

00;23;42;03 - 00;23;49;24

PV

It was their software. And there was a manual that was about two inches thick. And yeah, once you read it, you were fine, but it wasn't that friendly.

 

00;23;50;01 - 00;23;54;10

DP

Oh my gosh. So, sustainability and this house.

 

00;23;54;12 - 00;23;55;07

PV

Not a concern.

 

00;23;55;12 - 00;24;01;03

DP

Not an issue with the GC? Just wasn't something that you were going to push as part of the design build aspect of the house.

 

00;24;01;16 - 00;24;03;15

PV

No, that wasn't a concern for this project.

 

00;24;03;16 - 00;24;08;03

DP

No, I get it. I always ask all our guests; did you have any trouble finding a good mason?

 

00;24;08;05 - 00;24;11;22

PV

They're easy to find in Alexandria. If you see – I tell you what-

 

00;24;11;22 - 00;24;12;25

DP

Right. There’s so much brick in Washington.

 

00;24;12;27 - 00;24;26;16

PV

There's one project I can think of where they didn't get a good mason. I was down in Key West one time and they said, “you know, Hemingway did this wall.” And I said, ‘it looks like a drunk author did it.’

 

00;24;26;19 - 00;24;33;03

DP

That’s great. Oh, my gosh. So, before you go, I'd like to ask people, what's your favorite part about being an architect?

 

00;24;33;06 - 00;25;18;21

PV

It's in two phases right now. So, I used to teach full time. When I was teaching full time, I would say, I'm not making anything and I'm - that's what I'm trained to do. When I'm making things, often times I'll say, but this isn't about ideas. And so right now, the balance between those two is very gratifying. And being able to talk about ideas, which I like to think, is one of the benefits that I have in the office, because we'll talk about this stuff. I think everybody's more energized when that happens.

So, it's the camaraderie of the office. I know a lot of people are doing the remote work. We're in place and the studio. It's a fun place to be. The schematic design is my favorite part. You know, when I get close to retirement, everything else is going to go to somebody else.

 

00;25;18;21 - 00;25;19;02

DP

Oh, that's great.

 

00;25;19;10 - 00;25;21;19

PV

But I continue doing the schematic design.

 

00;25;21;21 - 00;25;27;13

DP

Yeah. So, I was going to ask you, what's the one thing you like least about being an architect? And it's probably all the other stuff.

 

00;25;27;13 - 00;25;32;03

PV

Site surveys. Yeah.

 

00;25;32;05 - 00;25;34;29

DP

You don't mean like existing condition stuff.

 

00;25;35;05 - 00;25;36;25

PV

Yeah, I haven't done that. We’re small enough, I’m not still doing that.

 

00;25;36;25 - 00;25;52;05

DP

It’d drive you nuts. Yeah, I get it, man. I've done many at home. Peter, you talked a little bit about Frank Lloyd Wright. Are there any architects that are usually in the back of your mind when you're designing that you really admire their work?

 

00;25;52;08 -00;26;35;17

PV

It more has to do with admiring the ideas because that's an inexhaustible font of information, whereas the projects they've done, they're done it does these certain things, but they're ideas that live inside of there that can apply to whatever project. So, depending on materials, depending on geometry, depending on what the site is telling me, that will determine then who I'll look to for references.

Like, for instance, as I mentioned, Frank Lloyd Wright did a series of houses based on a simple geometry that grew from one element that expanded. Corbusier, there was a lot of ideas in how he dealt with space, sort of the modern aesthetic, but it wasn't so much just this look. It had to do with accomplishing something he wanted to do intellectually.

 

00;26;35;20 - 00;26;41;29

DP

Yeah. Interestingly, Wright used brick in some of his work. Pretty effectively.

 

00;26;42;07 - 00;26;43;13

PV

Indian red.

 

00;26;43;15 - 00;26;52;26

DP

Yeah. Indian red. Well, Peter Vanderpoel, it was very nice to meet you today. Could you tell me how we can find out more about you and your architectural firm?

 

00;26;53;02 - 00;27;04;12

PV

Well, I have a website pvanderpoel.com P-V-A-N-D-E-R-P-O-E-L dot com. That has some samples of my work. And other than that, I'm pretty quiet.

 

00;27;04;14 - 00;27;07;00

DP

Well, great. The house is beautiful. Congratulations.

 

00;27;07;00 - 00;27;07;09

PV

Thank you.

 

00;27;07;16 - 00;27;09;13

DP

I'm sure it's been a big success.

 

00;27;09;15 - 00;27;13;22

PV

It's very gratifying to see that - to see ideas that happen.

 

00;27;13;24 - 00;27;15;18

DP

Yeah, I think it's the best part about being an architect.

 

00;27;15;18 - 00;27;18;14

PV

Marriage of the two things – having an idea that actually gets built.

 

00;27;18;21 - 00;27;45;25

DP

Yeah, that's great. Congratulations.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;03 - 00;00;05;13

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;15 - 00;00;36;20

Sussan Lari (SL)

The idea become into doing a L-shape design, and because it was kind of long L-shape, it gave me the opportunity to create the design as there are certain components of structures together with the playfulness of the roof, which is important for Tudor style and also different height and introduction of stucco and introduction of wood paneling, framing, stucco and brick.

 

00;00;36;23 - 00;02;42;08

DP

This is my guest, Sussan Lari. I'll share more about her shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault we’ll highlight Sussan's project, Henhawk House. This project was a renovation and major expansion of an existing 4,100 square foot residence. The new home is approximately 13,300 square feet.

The home features steeply pitched slate roofs, multiple gables of varying size, light red brick facades and half-timbered elevations with stucco infill and light gray wood. The homemade brick is highly detailed, with soldier, diagonal and herringbone coursing. The design also features tall, narrow windows, elliptical masonry archways and red copper gable finials, all of which reference early English domestic architecture and of course, the Tudor style. Although the exterior of the house is a traditional design language, the inside is completely open, functional, expansive, bright and modern.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat, and this is Design Vault.

Today we're talking to Sussan Lari, AIA. Sussan is a graduate of the University of Tehran School of Architecture in her native Iran. Sussan continued her studies in America with two master's degrees in architecture and planning from the University of Pennsylvania. She began her professional career with the Eggers group, P.C. in New York, where she was the first woman to be named vice president.

Sussan founded her own firm in 1992. Her businesses have full service, boutique, architectural and design build firm that crafts custom residential and commercial architecture in the greater tri state area. Sussan was elected president of the Long Island chapter of the American Institute of Architects for the year 2000, and her firm is an ongoing member. Sussan Lari, Architect, P.C. is celebrating their 30-year anniversary.

So, let's get into the details. Welcome, Sussan.

 

00;02;42;13 - 00;02;43;12

SL

Thank you.

 

00;02;43;14 - 00;02;51;15

DP

So, Susan, tell us a little bit about your firm. Where are you located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you typically do?

 

00;02;51;21 - 00;03;43;22

SL

My firm, located in Village of Rosslyn in Long Island. It's about half an hour drive from Manhattan, is on the north shore of Long Island, Nassau County. The space that we occupy is a very old building that was built in 1796. And we actually are the very first tenant of that upper portion of the building. The building was used mostly for offices, for timber construction. And it's a landmark building.

The owner of the building eventually was changed and turned into medical offices on the lower level. And then the upper portion was like an office space and a magnificent space in the attic that has never been used.

 

00;03;43;25 - 00;03;47;25

DP

And the space worked out in terms of your size and number of people you have.

 

00;03;48;00 - 00;05;05;05

SL

You know, I always wanted to have a smaller firm. I am a bit of a control freak, a bit OCD with perfectionism. So fortunately, or unfortunately, applies to my projects as well. I need to be intimately involved in the entire process, not only design but also selection of material finishes, you know, detailing selection of the trades. So, I thought that we really wouldn't and shouldn't have many, many projects at once.

So, my intention has never been to have a very large office. So, we all kind of involve on purpose intimately with every single project going on in the office. I believe that if I get my staff involved in the life of the project, then they will be more interested to contribute and perform to their best ability and they’re all involved with the client. So, it's like we all together. The number of people working for me at this point are five. So, we are six of us altogether. And at this point and for a while actually majority of our concentration has been on residential projects.

 

00;05;05;07 - 00;05;09;03

DP

So, what is your role in the office? What are you involved with?

 

00;05;09;06 - 00;05;11;01

SL

I put so many different hats.

 

00;05;11;04 - 00;05;12;13

DP

I kind of thought so.

 

00;05;12;15 - 00;06;00;03

SL

It's bringing marketing and bring client in. Although I have help. But then interviewing, accepting the project, preparing fee proposals. Design is all mine. That's what I do. Although right now Riccardo from my office, who is actually on paternal leave, has trained to be very good designer as well. As much as possible, I could make it happen, I let him get involved to have his point of view and he's really getting better and better. Majority I would say the concept is mine, detailing is mine, the bricks should be on an angle is mine, the interior architecture is mine, furniture furnishing... So I do a lot.

 

00;06;00;05 - 00;06;06;01

DP

So, tell me, you do a lot of drawing by hand, a lot of sketching. Is that the way you pass along your information and the ideas?

 

00;06;06;04 - 00;06;17;20

SL

No. Actually, yes, I do hand sketch. I do hand sketch during schematic and when I would like to explain an idea is all hand sketch, but everything else is CAD.

 

00;06;17;22 - 00;06;20;03

DP

Okay, so what CAD system are you guys on?

 

00;06;20;10 - 00;06;57;29

SL

Your basic CAD. Actually, because we are too detailed. I checked all different advancements of CAD, and I kind of thought that what we have, which is really basic CAD, has been incredibly helpful for us to provide us the possibility to go detailed. We detail everything. Like our set of construction drawing is close to maybe 30 drawings, just architecture. And when it gets to interior architecture is another like 30 drawings. We detail like cabinetry and bathroom tiles, that kind of stuff.

 

00;06;57;29 - 00;07;04;16

DP

Yeah, you get into everything. So, let's talk about the Henhawk house. So, tell me how your office got the project.

 

00;07;04;18 - 00;07;07;05

SL

Well, as usual, they find us-

 

00;07;07;07 - 00;07;07;26

DP

Word of mouth?

 

00;07;08;03 - 00;07;36;26

SL

Word of mouth. And they came to us. And it's a young couple. Very young. And the house was - they fall in love with the land. Location is really a fantastic location. The tree lined boulevard type street in Long Island. The house itself was Tudor style, brick, relatively small. Zoning wise, we were allowed to build close to 8,000 square feet and the existing house was close to 4,400 square feet.

 

00;07;36;27 - 00;07;38;13

DP

So, there's an FAR there?

 

00;07;38;15 - 00;08;06;10

SL

Yes. Yes. Everything we do is full force zoning and rules and that kind of I've learned them really well as much as can be played with, we have learned it all. But the house had character. But the house was dim, like typically Tudor style houses from outside are just stunningly gorgeous piece of structure. And when you go in, it’s just sad, dark.

 

00;08;06;15 - 00;08;11;23

DP

I love the way you describe that. It's so true. So many Tudors really feel that way. Absolutely.

 

00;08;11;29 - 00;08;47;14

SL

You know, in a way, it gives this kind of fear of people to the Tudor because they think Tudors are supposed to be dark interior and that is not going to happen with my approach to design, because I like the style of Tudor and I don't like the style of sad inside spaces. So, it's bright and happy and is open, is spacious. You know, lots of windows. And in this particular case, the expansion of the house was extensive because I needed to keep a chimney.

 

00;08;47;21 - 00;08;50;00

DP

Was this a functional chimney or boiler flues?

 

00;08;50;02 - 00;09;09;17

SL

Yes, functional chimney. And then we wanted to keep a fireplace. We wanted to keep a chimney and they wanted to keep the ceiling - plasterwork ceiling of a dining room - so I said, okay, if we keep all those three, but we get rid of everything else and that's what we-

 

00;09;09;18 - 00;09;12;10

DP

Wow, Right. I'm sure the contractor loved that.

 

00;09;12;14 - 00;10;27;23

SL

I work with a contractor. I absolutely love him. I'll get to the stories of my contractors because we are very involved in the construction process. So, my knowledge of construction is very high. And the contractor on this job was incredibly knowledgeable man who loved to do stuff like that but didn't care much to deal with clients and with everything else, paperwork,

So, it worked perfect. The idea become into doing a L-shape design, and because it was kind of long L-shape, it gives me the opportunity to create the design as there are certain components of structures together, section by section with the playfulness of a roof, which is important for Tudor style and also different height and also introduction of stucco and introduction of wood paneling, framing stucco and brick, and also playfulness of a brick. I think we were good in accomplishing that because it has its playfulness, and although it is relatively large, but it is not overwhelmingly massive.

 

00;10;27;29 - 00;10;29;18

DP

Yeah, I'd say it's well scaled.

 

00;10;29;21 - 00;11;23;02

SL

It is small scale, right? And then at the end we realized that there's no way we could match the old brick. So, I know Glen-Gery very well, because if I ever have done any brickwork, has been Glen-Gery. And why? Because the quality of the material, and I get service. So, I am fussy enough to worry about the size and also worry about the color of the grout. And I want to have two samples of it made before I even decide what color bricks. So, a rep does that service for us. And due to color, we provide the color to what brick and between those is what I chose. And eventually – and I have awesome mason that are Italian and five brothers and they’re one better than the other. They're local. And they do a magnificent job. And also they built a good size.

 

00;11;23;05 - 00;11;25;18

DP

They did a mockup for you.

 

00;11;25;20 - 00;12;06;23

SL

Mockup. Absolutely. And one other thing that I was almost kind of experimenting on this project was that I love the style of Tudor on the outside. I don't like the inside. So that was one issue. Second issue, I like the playfulness of how we could create interesting textures and playfulness of the laying of the brick, but Tudor would allow me to do that because we are compartmentalizing pieces, here and there. Other styles don't do that. And then that herringbone style has to be compartmentalized. Right?

 

00;12;06;26 - 00;12;08;23

DP

Yeah. And between the boards, I think at one.

 

00;12;08;23 - 00;12;55;10

SL

And between the board would work. We shouldn't do too much of it because too much of accessory, not good. So it allowed me to experiment and do detailed work and also choosing of the color of the brick and the color of the stucco and the freedom I had in detailing and designing and working also with the roof and with the roofer - I’m friend with the roofer, I'm friend with the Mason man, I’m friend - and to make sure that we get eventually a beautifully detailed house on the outside. And then when it come to the inside, our life is modern. We are living in this time. Our space should be representing our era.

 

00;12;55;17 - 00;12;57;29

DP

Did you guys use any brick on the interior?

 

00;12;58;06 - 00;13;00;14

SL

Not on this project.

 

00;13;00;16 - 00;13;08;06

DP

What were some of the historical precedents we were talking about? Details. Were there any local buildings that were Tudors? Was this the only Tudor locally?

 

00;13;08;06 - 00;13;27;22

SL

Yes. Actually, no. No, it's not. In this particular street, there are many other brick buildings. Typically, I would drive out on and look at the center and say, ‘Oh, this is so gorgeous.’ And, you know, it's one more beautiful than the other one. But I think mine, right now, it's really complete, in good level.

 

00;13;27;26 - 00;13;42;27

DP

I love – I love it. It's so great. Were there any significant setback issues? So, we were talking about the size of the existing houses almost three times smaller. Were there a significant number of zoning issues other than FAR, setback things?

 

00;13;42;29 - 00;13;51;21

SL

Yes. The chimney that I wanted to keep, which was right above the fireplace, was outside of skyline exposure.

 

00;13;51;22 - 00;13;54;09

DP

Okay. There was a height restriction.

 

00;13;54;11 - 00;15;41;16

SL

Yes, we always have height restriction. In this case, I said this an existing building. This is not a new house. This is a renovation of an existing house. So, I'm allowed to keep the chimney. And that chimney the end up to really change the inside of the chimney and outside of the chimney and all the bricks and everything.

But we kept the height – now, the zoning, building department going to hear that – fortunately, we had no issue of the setback because we had plenty of space from the front of the house in Kings Point, the setback requirement for front yard is 60 feet and we had way more than 60 feet. It was deep enough that I was able to create a parking courtyard in front of the house and the garage. We have one two car garage on the upper level and then three car garage in the lowest level. The garage is actually coming further out from the front of the house, but I don't think we had any other zoning issues.

But one other feature of the house that I thought it’s kind of important, as I was driving around and see all these Tudor houses, Tudor is not a box. Tudor is never a box. Tudor span, and that is one beautiful feature of when these all expand. We had a lot of width. Plenty of available width. The size of the property was very large, and we had enough room on the site and I thought that if I could add an extra width to the house we’ll be introducing a brick wall extending from the garage and that will be the access from the front of the house to the garden.

 

00;15;41;18 - 00;15;45;06

DP

And then you did a series of small windows along the garage, correct?

 

00;15;45;10 - 00;16;03;14

SL

Yes, because a simple wall without any detail in the front elevation was not a good idea. If I can introduce fenestration into the wall and breaking it because this is, again, the style of Tudor.

 

00;16;03;16 - 00;16;08;21

DP

Did you guys get to do any new details on this project that you hadn't done in the past?

 

00;16;08;23 - 00;16;23;28

SL

Yes. That brick herringbone is new. The playfulness of the brick above the entrance hall in the front and back. Front and back are identical in what they represent, and we don't repeat ourself. Literally, none of our projects are the same.

 

00;16;24;00 - 00;16;29;11

DP

I love the red copper finials on the gable ends. Does that double as lightning protection?

 

00;16;29;17 - 00;17;19;16

SL

Yes. And our roofer is just a master roofer. Unfortunately, he retired after pandemic. We loved him. Just spend a lot of time together coming up with ideas. And he performed beautifully.

And the door - there's also some - another feature we kept many of the existing trees. Trees are valuable. Don't like to cut trees. Doesn't matter if the tree is close to the house or tree is in front of the house. What’s wrong? Tree wants to be where tree wants to be. So, it was a tree that was really beautiful and wouldn't end up to be right in front of that passage to the garden. I couldn't cut the tree, said ‘let it be.’ And actually, in some of the pictures, you could see that the tree is right in front of the passage.

 

00;17;19;18 - 00;17;28;18

DP

So, this is a traditional home, but this question is kind of top of mind for most people today. Does sustainability come up with your clients at all, and materiality that you guys are using?

 

00;17;28;18 - 00;18;51;12

SL

Not with the client, but with my – with me, my office. We always do that. I've learned that maybe I've been kind of lucky here and there, having people who really care about sustainability. Sadly enough, majority don't, or they do not necessarily connect building material to sustainability. So, my office does for years. We do it without naming it because then they're concerned about the cost.

There are many different areas that we could really think about building the quality of heating and cooling system, the energy conservation insulation system. Those I do with that saying. My clients often who would not be bothered with that. Selection of the windows, undoubtedly. Using windows with the UL rated that transform the least amount of light, not brightness, but UV into the house we do. When it comes to insulation system, all spray foam. This goes without saying in every project we do. Selection of the material, natural, as much as we can. Selection of materials that are not biodegradable. I fight for that, to not do it.

 

00;18;51;15 - 00;18;53;27

DP

Did your clients want to use brick from the very beginning?

 

00;18;53;27 - 00;19;14;28

SL

Yeah, because their house was already brick. So, I thought that they liked the house, they loved the ceiling of the dining room. So fine, that was. And then I said, what else do you like? “We like the fireplace.” Okay, I like the chimney, but they like the fireplace. Fine. What else? “Brick.” And I said, okay, because Tudor style is brick.

 

00;19;15;04 - 00;19;23;24

DP

Well, I'm thinking it's solved so many design challenges for you guys. I mean, you got to be really playful with brick, but it also solved a lot of problems.

 

00;19;23;26 - 00;19;39;20

SL

Well, with brick, needless to say, is an amazing material. And it has been used for centuries and centuries and centuries, and still doing well. So, I don't quarrel when it comes to selection of brick.

 

00;19;39;23 - 00;19;44;00

DP

Did your team learn anything interesting through the process of building this building?

 

00;19;44;07 - 00;19;46;08

SL

We do on every building, actually.

 

00;19;46;10 - 00;19;53;22

DP

Isn't that interesting? It doesn’t matter how long you've been practicing, every one of us seems to learn something new every - every job. More than one thing.

 

00;19;53;28 - 00;19;57;26

SL

Undoubtedly. Information constantly changing.

 

00;19;57;27 - 00;20;00;09

DP

Yeah, that's a good point. It really does. Yeah.

 

00;20;00;11 - 00;20;30;09

SL

And what is available in the market constantly change. I think we become obsolete if we do not pay attention to what's happened. If we become comfortable in doing the same thing on and on, then our curiosity also lacks. And then we become so proud in what we do because we are successful and we are, you know, making money and we made it and we repeat the same thing. That is kind of the end of creativity.

 

00;20;30;11 - 00;20;35;18

DP

Off subject, have you thought at all about A.I. and what it means for our profession?

 

00;20;35;20 - 00;20;59;05

SL

Yes. I kind of love the idea. Yes. And I know that so much of worries there is there of AI to replace human beings. At the end, we are using the AI either to our benefit or not, but I think the benefits that AI could do are so amazingly high.

 

00;20;59;07 - 00;21;00;18

DP

So, using it as a tool.

 

00;21;00;22 - 00;21;01;27

SL

Like everything else.

 

00;21;02;04 - 00;21;20;23

DP

Well, I just wonder at what point, how much control are we going to have over how we're using AI, how our clients who aren't coming to architects are using AI, whether or not architects will ultimately use it as part of their services? It's a huge can of worms, but it's definitely something I've been thinking about.

 

00;21;21;00 - 00;21;24;01

SL

Let me tell you something. When I was graduating from UPenn-

 

00;21;24;02 - 00;21;25;11

DP

I went to Penn, by the way, too.

 

00;21;25;12 - 00;21;26;15

SL

Did you?

 

00;21;26;19 - 00;21;27;21

DP

I did. For graduate school, yeah.

 

00;21;27;26 - 00;22;02;19

SL

Okay. So same with me, graduate school. When I was graduating, they had a lecture, a farewell lecture. And the lecture was kind of gloomy because now you're done, graduated. We're sending you off to practice architecture, but we want to let you know the number of percentage of American buildings being designed by architects – I don’t remember exact number, but it was between nine and 11 – and then they said, compared to European – that I remember very well – 45%.

 

00;22;02;19 - 00;22;03;14

DP

Wow.

 

00;22;03;16 - 00;23;39;10

SL

So, I left school knowing that. Then I was thinking that that is not the problem necessarily with architect, but the problem of American not know what we do and the importance of our presence for every project. And that is again and again and again, we need to somehow change that level of knowledge of public work, which I think AIA is trying to do the best of their ability to inform public as the importance of architect, because we are not a set of drawings.

If anybody thinks that our work is a blueprint, then they have no clue of the importance of architect in any project. And we should also never try to compare ourself or believe that builders have taken our spot because typically, especially for residential architecture, people go to a contractor sometime before coming to the architect, and that is because contractor has been available and present for years and architects have not been available and present.

And the majority of quality architects, they don't want to even go to residential architecture because to them is just not good enough. And they have left this vast possibilities. We have – our builders build these buildings, by not the fault of themselves, because they don't know better of whatever is left of the world of residential architecture in America is sad.

 

00;23;39;12 - 00;24;14;07

DP

Wow. What I like about your position is that it's very positive, right? You could sit there and say, you know what, we're done designing, AI is going to be able to do it. It's going to have access to every design in the world and it's going to take over the world. And I love your explanation of being in school and hearing that architects – and I think I heard the same thing, that they were only responsible for a very small percentage of what was actually being done out there – and the reality is you still have a job and I still have a job, and although our jobs may change, I think we're going to be busy for a long time.

 

00;24;14;08 - 00;24;59;13

SL

We're going to be fine. We're going to be fine. And I think is gradually shifting. If people are shifting toward being concerned about their well-being, if shifting about being concerned about their health, their eating habit, small percentage, but we are small percentage when it comes to using our services. So, I think architecture and our part of the work, which is the importance of aesthetic, this is something I cannot put more emphasis on than anything else. Even if you don't need my knowledge, fine. But then the contractor’s knowledge – yes, he has knowledge of construction and maybe knowledge of material, but doesn't have knowledge of-

 

00;24;59;13 - 00;25;00;23

DP

Doesn't have the aesthetic training.

 

00;25;00;26 - 00;25;01;22

SL

No.

 

00;25;01;24 - 00;25;04;10

DP

Well, Sussan, it's been really nice to meet you.

 

00;25;04;15 - 00;25;05;28

SL

Thank you so much.

 

00;25;06;00 - 00;25;09;21

DP

So where do people go to find out more about Sussan Lari Architect, PC.

 

00;25;09;21 - 00;25;14;24

SL

I have a website, sussanlariarchitect and Instagram.

 

00;25;15;00 - 00;25;18;04

DP

Very good. Well, thank you very much for being here. It was really nice to meet you.

 

00;25;18;05 - 00;25;19;13

SL

Thank you very much for inviting me.

 

00;25;19;15 - 00;25;20;28

DP

I love your house. It's beautiful.

 

00;25;21;03 - 00;25;24;10

SL

Thank you.

TRANSCRIPT

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;05;09

Doug Patt (DP)

Let's go inside the vault. The design vault.

 

00;00;05;11 - 00;00;35;04

David Kubik (DK)

From avenue to Avenue across all of these 11 buildings. That was generally programmatically, what was sought after by the client was good commercial space, whether it was retail or office. So then really the next question was, okay, let's look at these buildings, understand which ones were perhaps more intact, more attractive the way they were, which ones could receive some additions, and were there any buildings that just didn't have really kind of great architectural character and warranted demolition and starting over and so we had a little bit of all those.

 

00;00;35;07 - 00;02;59;25

DP

This is my guest, David Kubik, AIA. I'll share more about him shortly. In this episode from the Design Vault, we’ll highlight David's project called Gansevoort Row. BKSK Architects made its imprint on the Gansevoort Market Historic District in New York City with a collection of landmark approvals. The redevelopment of a full block of tattered, low rise commercial buildings near the High Line.

Through careful analysis, BKSK made a strong rationale for taller building heights and some new construction along portions of the block. The new development project has a roster of luxury retailers, commercial and office space. The row buildings include existing facades, along with a creative variety of contemporary versions. Interestingly, each new building of various sizes features a unique blend of colors and patterns of brick.

The street facades maintain a turn of the century aesthetic with traditional elements and details, while employing modern windows and expansive metal awnings.

Hi, I'm Doug Pat and this is Design Vault.

Today we're talking to David Kubik, AIA. David Kubik holds a Bachelor of Science and Master of Architecture degree from the University of Maryland. He joined BKSK in 2003 and was named partner in 2018.

He works on the design of both institutional and development projects and is experienced at coordinating large consultant teams with expansive layers of complexity. He is currently the partner in charge of two new high end multi residential buildings for BKSK, the Keller and 111 Charles Street, both in the West Village and the recently completed 601 Washington Street. He also led the design of two commercial development projects in the Gansevoort Market Historic District, one of which we will discuss today, the Gansevoort Row redevelopment.

David has received an award for Excellence in Design and fellowships at both the graduate and Baccalaureate levels, as well as a thesis citation. David taught Design Studio as an adjunct lecturer in the Architectural Technology program at the City University of New York. So welcome, David. Nice to have you with us today. So, tell us a little bit about BKSK in New York City.

So where are you guys located? What's the size of the firm and what type of work do you do?

 

00;03;00;04 - 00;03;30;13

DK

Well, thanks for having me. A little bit more about BKSK Architects. The firm was founded in 1985. We've always, right from the beginning, been a firm focused on ambitious design, really over a broad range of typologies, whether commercial or residential institutional. And as we're going to talk about today, we have many, many projects that have obtained approval from the Landmarks Preservation Commission. That's a particularly special part of our practice. The firm is located here in New York City. We're on West 38th Street. It's currently led by six partners and we're about 50 people.

 

00;03;30;15 - 00;03;32;12

DP

So how long have you guys been in New York City?

 

00;03;32;19 - 00;03;43;26

DK

We've been here practicing since 1985, and we were down on 25th Street for a number of years. We recently moved up to West 38th Street in 2020, which was an exciting time to move an office.

 

00;03;44;02 - 00;03;46;22

DP

How was that? Was that fraught with challenges?

 

00;03;46;23 - 00;04;12;05

DK

It was fraught with challenges. We literally moved the weekend of the shutdown. So, we moved out of our old office on the Friday and moved into our new office on that Saturday. And if everyone recalls, Sunday was the day that New York City really, effectively, shut down. So, we plugged in our new server, plugged in all of our new computers, and crossed their fingers that everyone could log in remotely on Monday morning. And miraculously, it all worked.

 

00;04;12;12 - 00;04;15;02

DP

That is unbelievable. So, you guys weren't fully remote.

 

00;04;15;04 - 00;04;21;01

DK

Fully remote as many did for a number of months. But yes, all of that came down to literally a day.

 

00;04;21;08 - 00;04;25;19

DP

As an aside, did that last for employees or is everybody back in the office now?

 

00;04;25;22 - 00;04;37;12

DK

We're all back in the office now. We kind of have some flexibility in terms of working remotely like many do. You know, you can have kind of a hybrid week somewhat, but like many companies, for a number of months, we were fully remote, which is tricky for an architecture firm.

 

00;04;37;19 - 00;04;42;22

DP

Absolutely. So, tell us a little bit about yourself. So how did you end up at BKSK?

 

00;04;42;24 - 00;06;07;23

DK

Sure. So, as you noted in the introduction, I was attending University of Maryland. I grew up in New Jersey, so always had kind of a fondness for the New York City area, was really excited by the architecture that was happening there. So, while I was still a student at the University of Maryland, I did have a summer internship with Clement and Holl Span architects, who are really also well-known mid-sized firm here in New York.

After graduating, I worked for about a year and a half at Michael Graves Architect. Most people don't know this, but they did at the time have a New York City branch office. They were not just in Princeton, New Jersey. So, I worked for them for a little bit. And then in 2003, I joined BKSK Architects. And at the time I was really looking for work where I could have a heavy involvement in the creation of the construction documents and during Construction administration.

I loved the work that BKSK had. There was a real high level of design ambition and you could tell there was a real study and appreciation for the craft of what they were making. And I loved the idea that I could be both involved in the design and documentation as well as have the opportunity to be on site while it was being built, which on some of the larger firms, sometimes that's not always in the cards.

So, it was a little bit of a shift for me to go to an office that was a little bit smaller, a little bit more locally focused. But there was something that I recognized I was really interested in and BKSK was able to provide that. So, it was a really rewarding shift and I really enjoyed that practice.

 

00;06;07;25 - 00;06;13;13

DP

So now you're a partner. Has that changed at all your role in the office? Or tell us a little bit about what you do now.

 

00;06;13;16 - 00;07;17;01

DK

Sure. So obviously some things change, and I'm happy to say that many things haven't. Sure, my role has changed. I'm involved in more projects; I'm overseeing those projects in the kind of sort of senior leadership role you'd expect when you hear the term partner. But – and our office is a little bit bigger now than it was when I joined in 2003 – but,  I would say that the ethos has not changed and we still, as architects, as kind of a tight knit group there in the office, were still very much focused on what I was describing earlier, which is high level of ambition in the design work that we do. And we really like to understand how things get built and the craft in which it takes to build them.

So, we enjoy working with contractors. That's not an adversarial relationship. We like to be on site, you know, and communicate directly with the subcontractors and the general contractors. And that's a process that we see can have a lot of opportunity for collaboration. And again, doesn't have to be this sort of adversarial standoff, which sometimes it can unfortunately sort of devolve into. But we try to make sure it doesn't go there and that everyone's working together in the sandbox to create something beautiful.

 

00;07;17;08 - 00;07;24;10

DP

Let's dig in here and talk about our building. Tell us a little bit about the Gansevoort Row project. So how did your office get the project?

 

00;07;24;16 - 00;09;12;02

DK

One of our existing clients, a client that we had already completed a number of projects with us, approached us about this project over our capital. I definitely can go on and on about that. Relationships. We're really happy with that relationship. They're a terrific client. They understand what it means to do a project of quality.

And so, we were honored when they came to us about this opportunity and this site. It's on the south side of Gansevoort Street, stretching from Avenue to Avenue, from Greenwich Street to Washington Street. It's really three pieces of property. But when you look across those parcels, it's really 11 individual historic structures that occupy these three properties. So, it was really quite a collection of buildings and structures that we had to grapple with and understand. They were all a little different. Some were more carefully preserved and intact than others, but the entire site had to be presented into the Landmarks Preservation Commission and whatever we designed, they had to approve.

So, what's interesting about that process, I think right out of the gate is that, if you're working on a site that is not subject to LPC approval, the very first thing you do is understand what the local zoning regulations allow you to build. How tall can I go? How big can I go and plan? What is the bulk that's permitted? How many square feet of floor area can I build? When you're in a landmarks district, you do not have rights to that floor area. You have to present a design that is compelling and as they deem, quote unquote, appropriate. It's often the case that you do not get to realize all of the square feet or all of the bulk that zoning might describe for that particular district. And that happened here, too. We didn't reach the full floor area allowed. We realized a lot of floor area for the developer, which is of course good for them. But we did have to present something that was appropriate for the neighborhood, appropriate for the scale on the street and the specific site context that we were dealing with.

 

00;09;12;05 - 00;09;16;01

DP

So, tell us a little bit about that. So LPC is Landmark Property.

 

00;09;16;06 - 00;09;18;19

DK

Landmarks Preservation Commission, so LPC for short.

 

00;09;18;19 - 00;09;22;20

DP

And you said they had to approve what you guys designed. How does that work?

 

00;09;22;25 - 00;09;50;24

DK

Because they were in a historic district. It's the Gansevoort market district. Anything that gets proposed has to first go in front of the LPC group and they have to review it and approve it before you can get your building permit, before you can get your approval at the local building department. So, it's not a, quote unquote, as of right district where you just follow the local code, follow the local zoning and you're off and running. We have this extra step of scrutiny. Whatever we present, they ultimately have to approve.

 

00;09;51;02 - 00;10;02;25

DP

I saw a great photograph; I think it was on the website from 1938. So, tell us a little bit about the history of the site. Is it interesting and why hasn't it been developed to this point? And what has happened along the way?

 

00;10;02;29 - 00;12;06;24

DK

It is very interesting. It has many chapters which we could spend hours talking about, but I'll summarize it a little bit in the sense that there was different types of buildings that were built here, whether it was a store and loft building or more of a warehouse building or purpose built garage buildings. In this district, you would see many different types of buildings. It wasn't sort of so perfectly monolithic like in some other historic districts. And in, generally speaking, many of these buildings were built to a certain height, often around five stories, six stories. And then when the city kind of really fell into tough economic times, a lot of these buildings were cut down to two stories because it was a strategy for building owners to pay less in taxes.

Unfortunately, a lot of these quite nice historic buildings would get cut down arbitrarily to two stories because that's just what made sense if you had a store and maybe one level of offices or storage above but, they didn't really need more than that. And this area of Manhattan on the far, far west Side, you know, became this sort of meatpacking district. And it just wasn't very desirable real estate in New York City for many, many decades. And then as economic growth has kind of pushed the city in recent years and decades, you know, finally this neighborhood has become a place where it's seen as advantageous to develop. High line, obviously, changed a lot of that. The new Whitney Museum, being literally on the opposite corner from this site, changed a lot of that. And our developer, Aurora Capital, are really responsible for a lot of the development in this neighborhood.

So, they've really boosted the appeal and the economic viability of this neighborhood. So, it was interesting to really understand the history of those buildings and it was sort of time for the next chapter of what could happen with these buildings. And so, your original reference, the 1938 photo, we looked at a lot of that carefully because it was obviously history and context that matters when you're dealing with these buildings. And in some cases there were narratives about bringing some of these buildings back up to their original five story height and in other cases not, which we can get into a little bit more specifically. But yeah, it was a bit of a mixed bag.

 

00;12;06;27 - 00;12;16;16

DP

So, I understand the scope of the project was to create successful retail, commercial and office space. Tell us a little bit about the scope and then the programmatic requirements.

 

00;12;16;18 - 00;15;29;27

DK

Sure. So, from avenue to avenue, across all of these 11 buildings, that was generally programmatically what was sought after by the client was good commercial space, whether it was retail or office. So then really the next question was, okay, let's look at these buildings, understand which ones were perhaps more intact, more attractive the way they were, which ones could receive some additions. And were there any buildings that just didn't have really kind of great architectural character and warranted demolition and starting over? And so, we had a little bit of all of those. So, you know, if you start generally looking at the block on the eastern end, there were more buildings that were pretty intact, had good architectural character. And we got from a sense in the community that they were cherished a bit more than some of the others.

So, you'll see on the eastern end the scale kind of stayed down at two stories. On the western end, there were two sort of blocks of buildings, one which comprised of five store and loft buildings, almost tenement style rowhouse looking type buildings, but more commercial oriented. Those buildings were all cut down from five stories to two. So, we proposed to put a three-story addition on that two story structure and raise that to a five story building.

And then lastly, on the western end of the property, and that piece of property being directly across from the Whitney, was just a one-story garage building kind of purpose-built garage building. It was not an original building in the district and really had no kind of architectural merit or character to speak of in the historic designation report for the neighborhood, it was described as non-contributing, which is also a term they use for buildings that might be in a historic district but were really never part of the original fabric and don't have any real value or they're not adding value to the district. So that was a corner property that was deemed acceptable to kind of demolish, remove that one story structure, and build something brand new. So, on that far western end, we proposed a new six story kind of warehouse loft looking building. And this goes back to the strategy of where is it viable to add bulk and square footage for the developer to kind of realize their investment? And where does it make sense to not do that?

And so, it was in a sort of perfect, even monolithic approach. Let's just add two or three stories across the whole block from avenue and avenue. We didn't do that. We said, you know what, on the western end, it makes more architectural sense to grow the properties and go higher. And on the eastern end, it makes more sense to keep them a little lower.

What was also interesting about this project was, you could imagine the owner could have very easily said, okay, we have three pieces of property here. Let's go to three different architects and just treat them like three individual projects and go to landmarks three individual times. But we didn't do that, and I think that was really smart on behalf of the owner, regardless of who they hired, to treat this as one job because you could treat it almost like an urban design exercise, a master planning exercise, you could look at the whole block and sort of horse trade square footage and decide where was it more appropriate and palatable to pump up the square footage and where was it not. And so, I think that we recognized it as a unique opportunity. We wanted to get our heads around, immediately about, where does the architecture support this intervention and where maybe does it not.

 

00;15;30;04 - 00;15;35;06

DP

So, at the end of the day, were there any project restrictions in terms of the heights of the buildings?

 

00;15;35;13 - 00;16;57;15

DK

Definitely. There was a lot of scrutiny about height, but it wasn't coming through either a code or zoning regulation. It was coming through an in-depth conversation with the Landmarks Preservation Committee and the Community board. So, when the Landmarks Preservation Commission approves your project, their permit has a title, and at the top it's Certificate of Appropriateness. Their measure of, you know, whether or not something should be approved really centers around that term appropriateness. So, it's very subjective.

So, they're looking at the context. How tall are the buildings around you? What are the styles of those buildings? What are the colors of those buildings? Do they have a lot of glass? Do they have a little bit of glass? You know, is all of the architectural language context bulk history. So, it's about storytelling is one way we like to think about it. What is the narrative that justifies your project? Like, what is the big idea of your project? And it has to be rooted in the history of the site, the context of site, and an appropriateness. So, there was a lot of analyzation of what were these buildings.

You mentioned the 1938 photo. That was one photo that was really important. There were many others. And so, you're really crafting a story. You're telling a story. So, what we proposed, we hope, extends the sort of natural evolution of this block like I was referring to earlier. This block has many chapters, and this is just the next chapter. Buildings go up, they come down, they go up again. And this will kind of be an evolution that the neighborhood will probably continue to see.

 

00;16;57;17 - 00;17;06;02

DP

Since the process with the planning commission was so subjective, how many people are on the planning commission? Was that really challenging? Because everybody's got to agree, right?

 

00;17;06;05 - 00;17;34;27

DK

Sure. I can't recall the exact number right now. I think it's around ten commissioners. And so, you know, you have to have a majority of the commissioners to obtain approval. You don't have to have unanimous approval. We went to the Landmarks Commission two times in order to obtain that approval. But we involved ourselves with a lot of kind of community engagement and – and meetings ahead of time because we wanted to make sure that what we were bringing was something that was viable and supportable in any way that we could.

 

00;17;34;29 - 00;17;44;17

DP

So, tell us about the building plans. I would imagine as you run across the facade, some are rectangular, summer more square, but they all fill the entire block?

 

00;17;44;20 - 00;18;47;10

DK

Well, it's actually a little bit different. So, the buildings that are on corners have different requirements than buildings that are mid-block. On both the eastern and western end – on the eastern end is an existing building. That building is built full on its lot because a corner building can be built full, it doesn't have a required rear yard. So, the eastern building was a purpose-built garage building, really kind of special, unique yellow brick house has a really bright image to it and we retain that building because it has some really nice character to it. Hermes is in there right now, as a high-end retailer. That's a special condition.

In the mid-block portion of the project, there is a rear yard, and the ground floor is built full. But once you're above the ground floor, starting at the second floor and up, these buildings do have rear yards. And then our new building that we proposed on the western corner that I was talking about earlier, same situation that it's very common.

The zoning allows it. Most buildings in New York City, when you're on the corner, won't necessarily have a rear yard or a side yard or anything like that. And this building doesn't either.

 

00;18;47;13 - 00;18;54;03

DP

So, tell us a little bit about the style choices, right. I mean, it looked to me like there were at least three buildings that remained.

 

00;18;54;09 - 00;19;46;22

DK

More than that. I would say on the eastern end there are two. And then in the mid-block portion, it's one building. But historically it's really three structures. Then there's this group of five, and then there's our new warehouse building on the western end. So that's why I was saying it's kind of like 11 structures stretching across three pieces of property when you really get into it, in terms of their history. They are different styles. They're all a little different.

The one on the eastern end was kind of a garage building. The ones mid-block are more kind of a store and loft, so they have kind of commercial storefronts at the ground floor and then kind of punched opening double hung window language above that. And then on the western end, our new building was not so much a store and loft had more of a kind of a warehouse look, so much heavier masonry language with much bigger areas of glass kind of departing from the individual punch window language.

 

00;19;46;24 - 00;19;58;24

DP

So stylistically, the newer buildings are slightly more contemporary than the existing buildings. Did you have different architects working on different buildings and coming up with themes?

 

00;19;59;00 - 00;22;06;12

DK

We definitely had a pretty substantial team in this project, and we are very collaborative in the office. So regardless of what level you might be practicing at our office, we're all at the table together. Everyone's contributing ideas, which we think is a great way to work and really fun. Obviously, as you kind of break down the teams, there were certain people dedicated to certain areas of the project. I also worked really closely with my partner Todd on this project. He had a deep involvement in this as well. So, it was really kind of the two of us on this.

What I think is fun, and as a general observation across the whole block, is that once we had a clear understanding of the kind of existing language of the architecture, whether it was garage or store in loft or warehouse, when we had our interventions, we did it in such a way that was quite respectful and kind of playing off the traditional languages of those buildings, but clearly contemporary at the same time.

So, the brick detailing is done in a traditional way, but with modern techniques and modern, you know, sort of expressions that are a little bit different. So, in the mid-block building, the one that has a three-story addition on a two-story base, there we used brick that was very similar in tone to the second floor that existed, but then also came up with a very special window language that involved some terracotta tiles on the transom that allowed for bigger glass windows but a smaller masonry opening. So, it felt appropriate for the scale of that facade. And then on the corner building, we really wanted to bring the sort of large heft and substantialness of the masonry detailing that you would see on a lot of the older warehouse buildings, even some of the buildings directly across the street from us. And so, we used a technique called a concealed lintel system to allow all of our brick returns, whether they were eight inches and in some cases 12-inch brick returns. You had these really beautiful brick returns both in plan and in sections. So, above the window, the window heads, you can really see 12 inches of brick wrapping and returning to the window, which you don't always see in newer buildings now, but we thought was really important for a building like this to be well detailed like that and show that depth of masonry, which is so characteristic for a lot of the historic buildings in that neighborhood.

 

00;22;06;19 - 00;22;17;28

DP

Now, I saw some patterning running vertically along one of the taller buildings. Tell me a little bit about that because that motif appears as a lintel above the windows. What is that?

 

00;22;18;02 - 00;23;52;26

DK

Yeah, so that mid-block building that was five store and loft buildings all kind of put together on its eastern facade because the building next to it was cut down like we talked about down to two stories. It's sort of exposed on that brick facade, the sort of scar of where the chimney would have been. So, there was a very sort of roughly demolished zone on the side of that facade where you could tell by looking at it, ‘you know what? I bet you there was a masonry chimney there and it all just sort of got roughly demolished.’ But it was kind of a signature moment on the side of that building that you would really see in the historic photos, and you would see in that 1938 photo.

So, we kind of wanted to bring back that chimney scar, but we did it with these terracotta tiles and behind those tiles behind that pattern is floor to ceiling glass. So, you're getting this masonry expression on the eastern facade that brings back that very particular circumstance that that building had. But you're doing it in a way that also allows some natural light to come in the building, because this is now a commercial office building. It's not a store in loft. Those upper floors are not used for storage anymore. People are occupying those floors. So, we were looking for ways to bring in a lot of natural light into this new work environment. But we wanted to do it in such a way that again, go back to that word that was appropriate for the sort of architectural expression of the building. So yeah, it was a unique moment. And the transoms, the lintel is basically doing the same thing.

Behind that is a really tall window, but from the street it looks like a smaller window, and it looks like a size window that is appropriate for that scale of building. So, it was sort of how you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

00;23;52;28 - 00;24;00;27

DP

Yeah, it's a really interesting detail. So how long did the design process take, city review, construction, start to finish?

 

00;24;00;29 - 00;24;29;27

DK

Good question. I don't know. I don’t have all of those dates at my fingertips, but I would say that while typically a project like this in our office would take about a year to document from schematic design to 100% construction documents, I think on this project it was substantially longer. Maybe a year and a half, a year and three quarters because of the extra time it took to first seek and get that LPC approval.

Once the approval is in hand, then we can really march forward and finish those construction documents. And then the construction itself, I believe, took about two years.

 

00;24;30;04 - 00;24;31;12

DP

How many sheets were in the set?

 

00;24;31;19 - 00;24;36;22

DK

It's definitely over 200. It's probably approaching 250 sheets or something like that. Yeah, it's a big undertaking.

 

00;24;36;27 - 00;24;38;17

DP

Did you guys model this in 3D?

 

00;24;38;25 - 00;25;00;27

DK

This entire city block is in Revit. It's all one Revit file that can be broken apart because we had to issue it as three sets of construction documents. Going back to the fact that this is three properties, it had to get filed at the Department of Buildings in three pieces to match up to those pieces of property, even though it was conceived as one big thing. So, yes, three sets of drawings.

 

00;25;00;29 - 00;25;04;21

DP

Now, a job this big, do have more than one PM? Project manager.

 

00;25;04;21 - 00;25;18;07

DK

Yes. Yeah, on this project we had two, Will Russell and Evan Singer, who did a phenomenal job really combing through every detail, understanding every nook and cranny. It was a real labor of love for them. I think they enjoyed it very much and they did a great job.

 

00;25;18;09 - 00;25;29;28

DP

So, this question comes up a lot. Did sustainability ever come up in choosing the materials for the project? And clearly brick was already out there. Did you guys just say, “okay, this is what we're going to do; we never even thought about another material”?

 

00;25;30;05 - 00;27;06;14

DK

Yeah. So, this project didn't seek any particular certification, but there were many sustainable elements that we tried to incorporate whenever we could in terms of material selection. I think that was also interesting is this is a conversation about adaptive reuse. One of the most sustainable things you can do when you look at a building project is reuse existing material. If you want to reduce your carbon footprint, reuse what's there, don't bring new material on site.

Many of these facades, you know, we really carefully tried to keep as much as the brick structure, whether it's party walls, you know, load bearing walls, facade walls. We tried to keep as much of that intact as possible. There were cases where, even a little scary times, you go onto the roof and you look at these old brick parapets and, you know, they haven't been maintained or cared for in way too long. And the mortar is at this point dust. And you can literally just take your hand and take the bricks off, which it was time. We are also very grateful that this project happened when it did because, you know, I think it saved these buildings, too. They really needed this intervention. They needed this next chapter in their life.

So, we, in some cases, had to demolish brick walls and keep all the brick and catalog it, put it down on the floor, label it so that the masons could take it and then put it back up and reinstall it. So, we did a lot of that careful work in the restoration and then much of the new either additions or buildings that we designed use brick. And it was a direct sort of reaction to this historic neighborhood. There was just an abundance of it, frankly, used in many different ways, many different colors. And it was really sort of a core ingredient, if you will, to any of the architecture that you might propose here.

 

00;27;06;16 - 00;27;11;21

DP

So, I haven't seen any of the interior photos. But do we end up seeing brick on the interior of any of these buildings?

 

00;27;11;27 - 00;27;35;26

DK

On some of them, again, particularly in the places where they are existing. So, in the existing two-story portion of that store in loft building, every 25 feet was a load bearing brick wall. Many of those are still there and the retailers who took those spaces did not cover them up, which is great. We love seeing that. So, you can really see a lot of that character and some of the buildings on the eastern end. You have moments to see some of that brick, too.

 

00;27;36;03 - 00;27;43;22

DP

It looked to me like there were at least two different brick colors that were really unique to this job. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

 

00;27;43;27 - 00;28;51;12

DK

So, the two brick colors on the project that we're talking about right now is a kind of a standard red brick that went on our three-story addition over the two-story existing structure. And that was kind of a nice interplay between a nice, textured, more modern looking red brick, but clearly still relating to the historic red brick that was right below it. So, you can distinguish the difference, but it's subtle.

On the corner building, there is a more sort of neutral what you might think is a more modern brick color. It's a Glen-Gery glacier gray brick. It has a lot of kind of nice texture and variation to it, which we were really attracted by. And it is perhaps a little bit more neutral, a little bit more contemporary of a tone.

That said, there are many large six story warehouse buildings directly across the street from us on Washington Street on that block facing the river. And many of those buildings had some pretty neutral tones in their brick selection as well. Maybe perhaps a little bit creamier, a little bit warmer, but not that different from what we were proposing there. So, we thought it was kind of a nice sort of interplay between those tones and still felt quite appropriate in the color.

 

00;28;51;17 - 00;28;59;24

DP

And how did you guys ultimately find the right colors for the bricks? Did you guys simply have samples in the office, or did you go out and take a look at them?

 

00;29;00;02 - 00;29;49;10

DK

Yeah, both. So, we really want to gain all those samples in the office and kind of build a library that we can consider. We looked at mockups on site to make sure that we were really happy with it and just walking around the neighborhood looking at these tones and seeing really how they relate. So again, it's nice to feel like the selection is growing right out of the context, but with a little bit of a modern twist, we think is actually quite nice.

And that brick in particular, we really loved the variation in the shading. You get kind of different colors within it. There is a little bit of texture and stippling to the brick finish as well, and we kind of joke around that sometimes if you look at a material sample up close, you think it looks messy, but it's that messiness. When you put it at a building scale or an urban scale that really makes that brick look good and crafted. So having that texture we think is kind of important.

 

00;29;49;12 - 00;29;57;20

DP

That's a really good point. So, did your team learn anything interesting through the design and construction process? Anything come to light that was like, this is kind of cool?

 

00;29;57;28 - 00;30;55;01

DK

I think what's just fun about designing in brick is it's a particular knowledge set. It's kind of its own craft or game if you want to call it that. You really have to think about the module of brick and how it wants to be used. We know a typical module for brick is either eight inches or twelve inches, quite commonly, and when you start designing your building, you have to be thinking about that brick module from day one, how it courses out vertically, how it courses out horizontally.

There were moments we learned a little bit of the hard way where we thought we had it exactly right and we didn't have it exactly right. And we had to make changes on the fly. Work carefully with the subcontractor, but you can't ignore the module of brick. You have to kind of work with it, don't work against it, and your details should sort of celebrate the natural dimensions of that brick. And I think we learned a lot about that. We had done already a number of brick buildings in our history of the firm, but this one really had a little bit of everything in it, which was really quite fun.

 

00;30;55;03 - 00;31;08;02

DP

Isn’t it interesting that we deal with buildings, but we're really dealing with math, right? Everything has to kind of fit into those modules.

So, did you guys have any trouble finding a great mason to work with on the process?

 

00;31;08;09 - 00;31;56;12

DK

So, we rely very much on our contractors to find those subcontractors. So, we worked with a great general contractor here who did find their way to a mason who you could tell right from the beginning was enjoying their craft. They would constantly ask us questions because they just wanted to make sure that they were getting it right per the design intent. And we thought that was really great.

Again, going back to something I said earlier, it was a good collaborative, positive relationship between everyone because we just wanted to make these buildings, you know, as best we could. And so, I think that mason did an excellent job in this project, and it really shows if you walk the block. And whether you're looking at very careful noodling and restoration on the buildings to the east, or the obviously more expansive, impressive new construction on the west, all the detailing, all the construction is very tight. It looks great.

 

00;31;56;18 - 00;32;03;21

DP

It's good to hear. So, this is the last tough question I've got for you. You've been an architect for some time, I would imagine. 20, 25 years.

 

00;32;03;26 - 00;32;07;14

DK

23. Yeah, depending on when you want to start the clock. But yeah, somewhere in there.

 

00;32;07;14 - 00;32;14;24

DP

Right. Exactly. So, if you could give your younger self some career advice, based on who you are now, what would it be?

 

00;32;14;26 - 00;33;36;07

DK

I guess I would say, and it's something that's been important to me, and I guess it was a bit of a leap of faith, I kind of found my way to BKSK architects for a reason. I feel lucky that I ended up there, frankly. It reinforced an interest I had, which is really to understand what you're making.

I enjoy design very much. You know, we want to blue sky and think very ambitiously about what a project could be. You want to push the envelope. But I always like to couple that with the reality of how something gets built. And I think that constant tension, if you will, about being ambitious, trying something new, being innovative, I always want to couple that with understanding how you build because a lot of times the innovation will grow out of something quite conventional, or an observation about how things get built. ‘Well, this is how we normally do it.’ Well, what if you just did it the normal way, but turned it 90 degrees and now you have a new detail and you can express things differently. So, those two things don't have to fight each other, and they could actually reinforce each other. And I think that's something that I've tried to instill in people who have worked for me or when I've taught at City Tech. I think that is something that I've found to be a kind of rewarding aspect of the practice. I also think that goes back to where I went to school at University of Maryland. That was something that was kind of a core part of their ethos and their pedagogy about what they taught. And I think it's important and I recognize the sort of value of it as a practicing architect.

 

00;33;36;09 - 00;33;55;16

DP

Back when I was in Maryland, working in Baltimore, I was out on set with a contractor and he said, “Doug, do us a favor. Do yourself a favor. Always draw something that can be built.” So, learn construction, right? You may be an architect and you may want to be a designer, but you've got to learn how everything goes together first. That’s great advice.

 

00;33;55;18 - 00;34;20;00

DK

Yeah. And we try to practice this in our office now. Myself and my partners, we all kind of grew up together here at the firm. Once you get through one really big project of consequence, it makes you a better designer for the next project. It's like learning a language. It's like learning a grammar. Once you understand it and can speak the language and know how to form sentences and the structure of it all, it just makes you a better designer for the next one.

 

00;34;20;04 - 00;34;26;16

DP

Absolutely. David, it's been great to have you here. Thanks for your time. Where can people go to learn more about BKSK architects?

 

00;34;26;23 - 00;34;35;25

DK

bksk.com Please go ahead and visit. We're also on all of the major social media platforms. Welcome anyone's input, or anyone wants to reach out.

 

00;34;36;01 - 00;34;38;19

DP

Awesome. Thank you very much. It’s been great to have you as a guest.

 

00;34;38;21 - 00;34;42;15

DK

Thanks for having me. This was really fun.